Author Topic: Grainfather  (Read 18845 times)

Offline bougie1st

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Grainfather
« on: August 21, 2016, 12:48:31 AM »
With the new update, there is now the adjust mash vol for losses button.  I assume this is for equipment such as the grainfather. 

I know that there has been an ongoing issue getting BS2 to calculate the same mash/sparge volumes that the GF company calculator comes up with, but I seem to have been able to make it work under the old system, although with multiple mash setups for different grain weights.

My question is, how is BS2 now designed to set up a GF profile?  I currently have my mash tun volume at 30.02L, mash tun addition at 0, lauter tun losses at 3.41 with top up water for kettle at 3.41 and a boil volume of 30L (I use 30 instead of 28 per the GF calculator by adding an additional litre to the mash and sparge each - calculated off my other losses). If I remove the lauter tun losses and top up water for kettle, but ad 3.4L to the mash tun addition and then click the adjust mash vol for losses, I get a number that is way out.

Is there a help file/blog/example for how to set up single vessel equipment?

Thanks in advance!!  Great job on the update. Interesting learning all the new points!

Offline maltklaus

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2016, 06:51:40 AM »
Hi,

look under addons, there's a Grainfather equipment profile to download which was pretty spot on, I only adjusted it slightly to my preferences after a brewday. My mash profile is set up so I use about 22l of mash water for a normal gravity beer (depending on how much grains I use, this can vary) which works just fine. Never compared it to the official app, though.

My profile looks like this:
Efficiency 73 (this will vary)
No top up water (boiler and chiller)
90 min boil time as standard
2.56l/h boiloff (might vary too, depending on temperature, wind if you're brewing outside...)
Mash tun vol 35l
weight 9,3kg
Loss to trub/chiller: 2,8l
batch Volume: 23 ltr (a bit higher than the usual 5 gallons or 20 ltr - I save wort for carbonation)
Fermenter loss: 2ltr

Adjust batch volume and boil time to your usual figures (as well as fermenter loss) and you should have a good starter setup

Offline bougie1st

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 12:17:52 AM »
Thanks, Maltklaus

I had one downloaded from before the update, that was working ok.  I see there is a new addon that I have now downloaded.  I'll have a play with it and see.

Do you know why the mash tun volume is 22.6L and lauter tun losses 7L (with the adjust mash vol for losses ticked)?  It doesn't make sense to me.

I keep asking to understand rather than just do.  Means I can problem solve in the future.  Like that old fishing addage...

thanks again

Offline maltklaus

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 12:17:50 PM »
Hmmmm..... no idea at all why these figures would be set that way. And, to be honest, I don't know if mine are default from before or whether I changed them.... I just know it's now working perfectly for me after adjusting the values after my first brewday with the system...

I'd just set the volume to 35l (might be a tad high) and 0l lauter tun losses. Regarding the latter: The Beersmith help file lists this as "Represents the deadspace in the lauter tun - how much wort will likely be lost to the lauter tun screen and piping.  Unlike the mash tun addition, this volume is not recoverable during sparging." -> that's definitely 0 for the Grainfather...

Offline sciyan

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2016, 02:50:44 PM »
Hi,

look under addons, there's a Grainfather equipment profile to download which was pretty spot on, I only adjusted it slightly to my preferences after a brewday. My mash profile is set up so I use about 22l of mash water for a normal gravity beer (depending on how much grains I use, this can vary) which works just fine. Never compared it to the official app, though.

My profile looks like this:
Efficiency 73 (this will vary)
No top up water (boiler and chiller)
90 min boil time as standard
2.56l/h boiloff (might vary too, depending on temperature, wind if you're brewing outside...)
Mash tun vol 35l
weight 9,3kg
Loss to trub/chiller: 2,8l
batch Volume: 23 ltr (a bit higher than the usual 5 gallons or 20 ltr - I save wort for carbonation)
Fermenter loss: 2ltr

Adjust batch volume and boil time to your usual figures (as well as fermenter loss) and you should have a good starter setup

Mine looks close to yours. Here my data :

Efficiency : 78% (this will vary)
Mash tun volume : 30L (but I believe it can take a few more liter, you suggested 35 L ? Did you tested it or it's a guess ?)
Mash tun weight : 0 (it is not relevant since you are using the same vessel)
Mash tun specific heat : 0 (it is not relevant since you are using the same)
Mash tun addtion : 3.5L (3.4 to 3.6)
Lauter tun loss: 0 (since you are pumping all the liquid)
Adjust mash volume for losse : check
Top up kettle : 0
Boil time : 60 min
Boil off : 2L (this will vary, I'm brewing outside and it can go from 1.6L/h to 3.25L/h)
Loss trub and chiller : 1.6 L (1.5 to 1.7, tested with several brewers but it can be more if you brew with pounds of hops !)
Top up fermenter : 0
Batch volume : 18.9 L (5 gal)
Whirlpool time 85 : 18min
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 08:00:01 AM by sciyan »

Offline Wrongway

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2016, 09:28:06 AM »
I have tried all sorts of setting and cannot get one to agree with the calculation on the Grainfather site.  Before the latest update I had settings suggested by William TeBreak  which did a lot of fudging of figures to get around the water calcs before the Mash Tun Addition value was added.  It all seemed like black magic to me!!  I have downloaded the Grainfather addon, which as others mention can't be right as it had a figure set in the Lauter Tun losses which is wrong or the GF.  A simple calculation of Batch volume of 23L and 5KG of grain should produce 17L of mash water and 15L of sparge water.  It never does though.  I am wondering if it's an idea to give up on letting Beersmith do the water calcs and just use it for recipes.

Offline sciyan

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 05:52:24 PM »
I have tried all sorts of setting and cannot get one to agree with the calculation on the Grainfather site.  Before the latest update I had settings suggested by William TeBreak  which did a lot of fudging of figures to get around the water calcs before the Mash Tun Addition value was added.  It all seemed like black magic to me!!  I have downloaded the Grainfather addon, which as others mention can't be right as it had a figure set in the Lauter Tun losses which is wrong or the GF.  A simple calculation of Batch volume of 23L and 5KG of grain should produce 17L of mash water and 15L of sparge water.  It never does though.  I am wondering if it's an idea to give up on letting Beersmith do the water calcs and just use it for recipes.

If you've used the one provided with BS, well, I understand why it's not working. From my point of view, the setting makes no sense (lauter tun losses 7L ???). I went to the grainfather web site to see that calculator and I believe that the discripency came from the efficiency. In beersmith you have to set the efficiency, and according to your result you adjust it for the next batch, and so on. The grain father calculator doesn't specify any "efficiency". With my setting I'm able to reach 78% total efficiency and ~90% mash efficiency. No way the grain father calculator can handle this parameters. I'm prety sure they have a "standard" efficiency already setup in the back ground, that's why you obtain different results (I think so). There is also a slight possibility that the profil provided for beersmith is design for europe/australia and not north america, wich will explain discripency too.

Offline bougie1st

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2016, 09:12:31 PM »
Ok - so, based on previous tinkering and profiles stolen from elsewhere (mostly from a fellow named Andrew Hammond from a FB forum), seem to have been able to figure out Brad's changes to make this work.  The calculations are spot on for the few recipes I have tested.

I have attached the files for my profile (28L preboil volume) and the associated mash.  Note in the profile that you have to adjust the default grain absorption in the advanced settings to get this right.  Also, in the mash, the water/grain ratio needs to be 2.7L/kg.  Doing this (with the 3.5L mash tun addition) makes it work!!

If you aren't using the micro pipework, and need to add water for a small grain bill - simply add it to the Mash Tun addition on the Mash page of your recipe.  It defaults to the 3.5L, but say you need to add an extra 2L, just edit it in the recipe to 5.5L and everything will work from there.

I like to aim for a bit more usually, with a 30L preboil volume, by adding 1L in the mash and 1L in the sparge.  To do this, adjust the boil volume to 30L and the mash tun addition to 4.5L. 

I have to say thanks to Brad for listening and getting this fixed!!  Many people will be happy about this!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:40:20 PM by bougie1st »

Offline MATTIA

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2017, 04:37:27 AM »
hi to everyone,
I'm new here and a rookie with Beersmith ... I have the old  GrainFather version with 2 bottons on Old controlbox.
Any help ?

Offline bougie1st

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2017, 06:11:52 PM »
What would you like help with?  The profile uploaded here is unaffected by the control box you are using.

Offline MATTIA

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 09:50:31 AM »
many thanks.
I'm quite new even with BS2 or GF ... but I'll do my best to learn quite fast.
how can I upload the profile attached on the previus post ?
Many thanks again

Offline bougie1st

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2017, 04:28:03 PM »
Simply download it. Open BS2 then hit the open file tab, find it and select it. It will then open in BS2. Then save it into equipment or mash profiles as appropriate

Good luck

Offline beautypd

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2017, 09:56:06 PM »
lol thank you ;D
โรงงานรับผลิตครีม กิจการที่สำคัญและมีคนรุ่นใหม่ที่ให้ความสำคัญใส่ใจตัวเองลงทุนมาก โรงงานผลิตที่ดีควรได้หลักเกณฑ์ GMP(Good Manufacturing Practice)และมาตรฐาน อย.

Offline dttk0009

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2017, 10:27:48 AM »
Simply download it. Open BS2 then hit the open file tab, find it and select it. It will then open in BS2. Then save it into equipment or mash profiles as appropriate

Good luck
Heya bougie1st,

Thanks for taking the time work out the profile!

I have a question though since some aspects of it are confusing to me:

1) Do you actually top up to 28L as Beersmith suggests or is this arbitrary? I'm also looking to brew 21L batches, but topping up

2) Is it unusual that the Grainfather mash/sparge figures don't line up with the BS2 calculations? For example, I recently wanted to brew a 21L batch with a 5.71kg grain bill. BS2 tells me I need 18.94L/13.64L for mash/sparge. However, the Grainfather calculations say I need 18.92L/11.65L, which is a difference of 2L and will probably affect eventual gravity readings. Is there something I'm missing?

Offline bougie1st

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Re: Grainfather
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2017, 03:52:25 AM »
Hi

I always just use the numbers that BS2 gives me - ie, I don't add any water to top up to 28 L specifically.

The previous profile was setup to get a value in BS2 that will equal the GF calcs.  One thing that may affect it is dependent on your model/where you are, as the 110V and 220V have different calculations based on their expected boil off.

I have actually moved completely away from the GF calcs, and instead have my own profile setup in BS2.  The reason for this is that I consider that the GF is simply a piece of equipment, that (although awesome), is no different to any other and requires customisation based on your own experiences.  The GF calcs are averages, but I kept finding that my variables would be slightly different.  Since doing that, I can now account for all my losses throughout and get the exact amount that I want in the fermenter.  I have found other issues recently, but I'm happier with it this way.

Plenty of others are happy with the GF calcs, and it works for them.  I found that they are based on different assumptions, and therefore give different answers, so using BS2 as my main recording system, I went with it completely.

Good luck!