Weird IBU calculation when no steep/whirlpool is used!

Hi!
I'm experimenting with not boiling the hops and instead just do at hot steep/Whirlpool or a mix of both. Since I have an insulated kettle (which also has an insulated lid) the temperature of the hop stand can be kept high (near boiling temp) for a very long time if I want a high IBU contribution from the steep. To get the IBU numbers from a hot steep to be consistent with the perceived bitterness I had to tweak the “Steep/Whirlpool Util Factor”. I thought that this setting only should affect the hop I choose to be steep/whirlpool hop and the late boil hop additions which also will be steeped.  But … if I for example set the Steep/Whirlpool Util Factor to 100% I noticed that all hop additions get almost the same IBU contribution even if/when no hops was assigned to be steep/whirlpool hop.

It means that when I’m not want to do a steep/whirlpool but just do traditional boil hop additions and a fast chill, I get very strange (I guess incorrect) calculated numbers for the IBU. For example a 5 min or even a 0 min/flame out addition gives almost the same numbers/IBU contribution as a 60 min. It does not seem logical, does it?

Is there any thought behind this behavior that I don’t understand or is it just a bug that can be fixed fast and easy?

OK, so I tried to duplicate what you are talking about and could not.  If I open a recipe with steeped hops and change the utilization rate of the steep/whirlpool hops, the IBU contribution of ONLY the whirlpool hops changes. Other boil hop addition contributions stay the same, regardless of the time of addition. 

When I opened a recipe with only 60 minute hop addition and then changed the utilization factor for whirlpool, no change to the calculated IBU was observed. 

So for whatever reason, I cannot create the issue you outlined below and am not sure why you would be seeing it on your system.

If you find out anything more or post a recipe where this occurs, maybe we can figure it out.

I forgot to mention that I use BS 2.3.7 and as far as I understand things have been changed so a steep/Whirlpool should afect the other (erlier) additions since they are steeped too. But ... however I don't Think the Steep/Whirlpool Util Factor should afect the IBU contribution from boil hop additions if I don't do any steep/Whirlpool.
Here ate some screenshots that shows how different Steep/Whirlpool Util Factor settings afect the IBU contribution with and without a steep/Whirlpool.

ipanisse said:

But … if I for example set the Steep/Whirlpool Util Factor to 100% I noticed that all hop additions get almost the same IBU contribution even if/when no hops was assigned to be steep/whirlpool hop.

It means that when I’m not want to do a steep/whirlpool but just do traditional boil hop additions and a fast chill, I get very strange (I guess incorrect) calculated numbers for the IBU. For example a 5 min or even a 0 min/flame out addition gives almost the same numbers/IBU contribution as a 60 min. It does not seem logical, does it?

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In your equipment profile, you'll need to adjust the steep time to match your procedure. If you chill quickly, then steep/whirlpool time should be set to <5 min, or however fast it takes to get to 85C.

You can also uncheck the carryover box that tells BeerSmith to continue the isomerization calculation for the time assigned.

Hop utilization tends to plateau around 90 minutes, though utilization drops off steeply at about 60 minutes.

Thanks, I had forgoten there was a setting for that too. By tweaking both this setting you can get the numbers to be more likely but you also have to tweek these settings every time you make any changes to your aproach.
So to me it looks more like a temporary solution or workaround then the final solution.
It would have been more logical and easy to understand and manage if the "carry over calculation" only is performed when a steep/Whirlpool is done (a hop addition is asigned to be a steep/Whirlpool addition) and that the calculation and IBU contribution of the steep and carry overs is based on the steps, time and temperature of the steep. Please Brad!

Well, vell, you can't have it all (but I wich I had) Cheers!

Good catch, Brewfun!  I had forgotten about the carryover option. 

Set your whirlpool/steep time to Zero in your equipment profile, uncheck the box to estimate further isomerization of boil hops and the boil hops will no longer change on you.  I have my set up at this setting and have dropped the utilization factor on whirlpool/boil hops to match my perceived bitterness how what the numbers come out.

ipanisse said:

Thanks, I had forgoten there was a setting for that too. By tweaking both this setting you can get the numbers to be more likely but you also have to tweek these settings every time you make any changes to your aproach.
So to me it looks more like a temporary solution or workaround then the final solution.

Click to expand...

I think it's logical that if you change your procedures, then you should change your profiles to match. The very reason profiles are part of each recipe instead of global is so that they can reflect exactly what happened when brewing.

It would have been more logical and easy to understand and manage if the "carry over calculation" only is performed when a steep/Whirlpool is done (a hop addition is assigned to be a steep/Whirlpool addition) and that the calculation and IBU contribution of the steep and carry overs is based on the steps, time and temperature of the steep.

Click to expand...

Two quick points.

This doesn't hold up if someone like me has a whirlpool of say 20 minutes, whether there's a hop addition or not. But the current method solves that.

Second, please remember that the calculations are estimates. Whether you're going for 2 BU or 100, it's still an estimate. Always consider that you'll lose BUs through your fermentation and packaging process, often half or more. And further, BUs are just bittering that say nothing of the aromatics you desire. Always aim for the flavor/aromatics you want for a style, the BUs will usually work themselves out.

Oginme said:

Good catch, Brewfun!  I had forgotten about the carryover option. 

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No worries. I got yer back, bro.  8)