Author Topic: Hops and pre boil volume  (Read 9839 times)

Offline ihikeut

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Re: Hops and pre boil volume
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2017, 06:47:03 AM »
Wow such a argument over a quart of wort.

Offline Oginme

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Re: Hops and pre boil volume
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2017, 07:10:58 AM »

If one does what you are saying, their final volume will be a significantly higher via volume, then you'd have to account for loss via trub and chiller like you stated.

Who does that? Seriously do you know anyone that wouldn't use some kind of a hop bag for 12 ounces plus on an 11 gallon batch of ipa?  Now you're just being difficult.

I am really not trying to be difficult.  You stated that this, in your opinion, is a very significant flaw in BeerSmith.  I am trying to explain why it is not.

OK, real life scenario:

I brewed my DIPA last fall, aiming for a 17 liter batch with 2 liters of trub, so total post boil would have been 19 liters.

I started with an extra half liter of water through misreading the sheet as I was filling my kettles.  Added a total of 218 grams of hops.  So that comes out to 44.5 grams of hops per gallon, or 1.57 ounces/gallon.  No hop bag.

I ended up with 17.65 liters in my carboy and 2 liters of trub (as planned).  In entering in my process data into my tracking spreadsheet, I noted the extra half liter of water added deviation from plan.  My boil off rate and grain absorption was pretty close to target; preboil volume was 24.2 liters versus projected 23.76 liters by BeerSmith.  So in total the 218 grams of hops added to the boil kettle amounted to and additional whopping 200 ml (0.2 liters) of additional wort not accounted for in my water additions.  My boil off rate was 2.42 lph versus my equipment profile which was set at 2.43 lph, so in a 90-minute boil, that may have accounted for most of the 200 ml I was off, but even ignoring that, the volume is pretty proportional to the amount of hops added and not the absorption rate of the hops.

If, on the other hand, the software had added 5 oz of additional water for each ounce of hops I added, The software would have put in an additional 1.14 liters of water throwing my system completely out of balance.  I would have missed my pre-boil gravity based upon a dilution factor of around 4.7% and post-boil gravity by a similar amount. 

It certainly seems to me that if this were a more significant error, as you have been arguing, then Brad would have addressed it by now.  As my experiences and measurements bear out, it the volume of the hops is a rather minor addition to the ending volume and one that can easily disappear into the error of most people's ability to accurately measure.

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Offline brewprint

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Re: Hops and pre boil volume
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2017, 01:10:26 PM »
Wow such a argument over a quart of wort.

6 ounces of hops is roughly a quart of wort. 12 ounces for a double batch is 1/2 gallon. Now add 18 ounces for a DIPA and we're at 3/4 gallon. Make a hoppier TIPA with 24 ounces and now we're at 1 extra gallon.

The argument isn't about a quart of wort.

I understand that the software doesn't compensate for hop absorption. I also realize that it can be negligible for most beers that aren't IPAs or even 5 gallon batches of IPAs. When doing batches greater than 5 gallons it can have a significant impact.

If you guys don't agree, and for the most part automatically disagree with my conclusion, then it just kind of defeats the purpose of the forum.

The reason that I made this post on here was because I thought there was something missing and I just didn't see it, as I've done before. I see now that's actually not the case.

Cheers!

Offline Oginme

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Re: Hops and pre boil volume
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2017, 02:16:03 PM »
Please don't take the comments and arguments personally.  I certainly didn't.

You pointed out something that warranted investigation in your mind, and I think did a good job presenting your case.  I tried to argue back civilly and with information that I deemed appropriate. It really was a useful back and forth and did force me to take a good long look at the subject matter and dive into my data again to determine if there was something that I was missing.  In my experiences and brewing data so far, I don't think so but I could still be proven wrong. 

I work in a company which develops new technology focused on the manipulation of the electromagnetic spectrum from deep UV through the IR.  We frequently have such discussions, even when we all think the person putting forward the assertion is correct, to poke and prod the subject matter to see if something is there to investigate further.   It is how we all move things forward in a productive manner. 

Same goes here.  Things get suggested or recommended; the idea is beaten around ring a few times; and sometimes it leads to improvements. 

On the positive note, if the software was to be centered around mash efficiency instead of brew house efficiency, your idea would work in allowing for a minimal trub value that could then be adjusted based upon an expected amount of hop additions with associated water retention.  The way the software is set up now, it would make an adjustment to the mash efficiency to accommodate the increased volume of wort, making the mash efficiency a moving target.
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Offline ihikeut

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Re: Hops and pre boil volume
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2017, 08:04:29 PM »

Sorry didn't know I was stepping on your toes. You are right the hop absorption rate is approx. 8 to 12 oz of fluid to 1 oz  of hops, bearing on type of hops and moisture content. As of now I don't see where Brad has addressed this in his program. Could be with a 33% variable he choose not too. It maybe something he may do in the future. Until he addresses this issue we will all have to factor it in too our brewing process.

Offline brewfun

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Re: Hops and pre boil volume
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2017, 10:29:45 AM »
If you guys don't agree, and for the most part automatically disagree with my conclusion, then it just kind of defeats the purpose of the forum.

The reason that I made this post on here was because I thought there was something missing and I just didn't see it, as I've done before. I see now that's actually not the case.

I don't disagree with either your conclusion or your desire to see the software make a compensation. Yet, there are a lot of other places where BeerSmith and every other program make very broad assumptions and people still get accurate results. BeerSmith has always dealt with these types of losses in the trub number. Other programs may deal with it differently, but both end up in the same place.

BeerSmith doesn't account for moisture content in grain, or liquid loss from yeast. There is no calculation for beer absorbed by yeast or volume loss from CO2 and alcohol lamination.

What does happen is that brewers change the batch size and loss assumptions to cover a broad swath of circumstances. Thus, we end up with 5.5 gallon batch sizes for a 5 gallon yield. Seems to work. In my case, I look for 17.1 barrels in a fermenter to get a 15 barrel yield. Adding dry hops is an assumed loss of 1 gallon per pound. My yield just goes down, I don't look to add water way back at the beginning of the process.

I think your observations in other threads about pH and water chemistry are on-point and much higher priorities.
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Offline BOB357

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Re: Hops and pre boil volume
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2017, 04:26:08 PM »
Since I introduced the 5.12 oz./oz. of hops that heated up this thread, I thought it fit to add that I don't calculate losses to hop debris, whether I use a spider or just chunk the pellets in. I set my batch size to 6.0 gallons to brew a 5.5 gallon batch so I can be assured of 5.5 gallons of clear wort into the fermenter. If I end up with some extra it can go into a 1 gallon fermenter or be canned as starter wort.

Following this thread got me to thinking (ouch!). In the process of dialing in my equipment profiles I measured the various losses in the process, as I assume most of you did. Among those losses were kettle loss due to trub. I never really thought how much hop debris, and the liquid it was suspended in contributed to the volume I entered. If we had 3 or 4 oz. of hops in the batches we measured the kettle loss from, it greatly reduces the volumes being discussed here.

Also, what goes into the fermenter varies greatly from brewer to brewer. All the way from running only clean wort to dumping everything in. In the end, each of us have found what works for us and our setup. While I do support input to Brad, I really think this subject would be better addressed by individuals to fit their systems and processes. The losses are similar to boil off change when the humidity takes a big swing, and we don't usually think much about relative humidity before calculating water volumes. Just my opinion.

 If you feel it important enough, it's simple enough to just add a set amount of sparge water/oz. of hops above what was included with kettle loss or suck up the loss in your packaging volume. In any event, it has been an interesting discussion leaving us an opportunity to do some experimentation.
Bob

Offline home2come

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Re: Hops and pre boil volume
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2017, 01:20:19 AM »
 :D ;) :)

 

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