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batch sparging

B

budbrew

I just purchased the software, specifically for the batch sparge option.  Unfortunetely my trial ran out before I had time to try it out.

I entered my first recipe and realized that this software really doesn't do batch sparge.  When I selected the batch sparge option my final gravity didn't decrease do to the the inefficiency of batch sparging.  Doesn't this software do the dilution calculations?  The only way I could decrease the final gravity was to reduce the brewhouse efficiency. 

I used to use a spreadsheet to compute my batch sparge, then I would use promash to compute the hops, using the FG that my spreadsheet computed.  I thought I could stop using my spreadsheet and promash with beersmith. 

Am I missing something?

Any help is appreciated,

Mark
 
Hi,
  BeerSmith does do batch sparging by calculating the sparge water needed.  If you check the batch sparge options it will show you the batch additions on the brewsheet instructions.

  It does not reduce final gravity for batch sparge because this is dependent on your own individual setup and overall efficiency.  Every setup will get different results, so this is something you need to dial in.  You will get lower efficiency with batch sparge, which you can calculate after the fact using the efficiency button for the recipe.  In addition you can use the scale recipe button to adjust recipes to fit your efficiency settings.

  Please let me know if you need additional information on this - you also might want to check out this article on batch sparging.

Thanks,
Brad

 
 
The reduction in point do to batch sparging is not system dependent, it's easily calculated.


Let me explain what I mean by batch sparge calculation, which I thought this program did.

Say your doing a 10 gallon batch, with 30 lbs of grain, and you want to have 11.5 gallons to boil.

Say your 30 lbs of grain has 1000 point available to extract, 30lbs * 35 points/lb is roughly 1000 points.

Assume a 75% conversion efficiency.

so 1000 points times 75 % is 750 points available after mashing.

Just say that my 30lbs of grain will absorb 4 gallons of water.

If my initial infusion was 10 gallons, when I drain The mashtun I will extract 6/(6+4) * 750 points = 450 points in 6 gallons

That leaves 300 points left, if I then add 5.5 gallons, recirculate then drain, I will extract 5.5/(5.5+4) * 300 points = 174 in 5.5 gallons

So, I've extracted 624 points in 11.5 gallons of wort out of a possible 750 points.

624/750 = 83% I call this a batch sparge efficiency.

Some people call this a 'dilution calculation'  I guess since you can only remove a percantage of the point do to the grain bed halding back liquid.


This is the calculation I thought beersmith did, I think you could take 83% * 75* and stick that in your brew house efficiency. But the 83% is not a constant it is affected by the size of you first and second sparges, your water to grain ratio, the grain absorption rate.

I've been batchsparging for years and these calcs, which I initially got of the web but I think are in John Palmers latest How to Brew book, work.



I thought I would give the program a try, I entered a recipe,selected batch sparge, beersmith calculated a FG of 1.078.  My spreadsheets, which work, calculated and FG of 1.064.  Based on old recipes the 1.064 is in the ball park. 

I guess this is my fault, I should have evaluated it before my trial ran out.  Does this software have any 'satisfaction guarantee' , it offers me nothing over my 2 step process (excel and promash).
 
Hi,
  If you use a consistent batch size, and equal runnings batches (which are optimal) you should be pulling the same amount of wort into your boiler for each batch, and you will have a consistent batch efficiency from batch to batch, with the possible exception of very very high OG batches. 

  If you are interested in knowing the intermediate efficiencies (such as into the boiler efficiency) you can get those using the "brewhouse efficiency" button on the open recipe page and entering your measurements (measured volume, measured gravities) to get your actual efficiencies.

  The fundamental problem is that "brewhouse efficiency" includes all of the losses for the system (including batch sparge losses).  While it is true one can try to back out all of the intermediate losses, this would still require one to know the "mash efficiency" and then calculate losses from that point forward.

  Regarding your calculations above, I don't fully understand them.  For example, mashing with 10 gallons of water and then draining 6 gallons does not extract ((6/(6+4))*points) from the mash as far as I know.  The points extracted is not simply a function of water added versus water retained in the grain.  It also has to do with a number of other factors including the design of the mash tun, and the crush of the grain, methods used and other equipment specific items.  The OG of the runnoff declines exponentially as you sparge.  This is normally rolled up into "mash efficiency", which you can calculate using BeerSmith from actual measurements.

  Do you have a good reference article I could look at regarding your technique?

  Finally, I'm more than happy to offer a full refund if you are unhappy with BeerSmith - we stand by the product.  Just drop me an email and I will refund your order.

Thanks,
Brad

 
Here's a link to what my spreadsheet is based on http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html

My example was sort simplified, my spreadsheet uses the formulas in the link.  But the idea is that if your mashtun has 10 gallons of liquid in it at a gravity of 1.075 (after conversion).  If you drain the mashtun and 6 gallons comes out.  4 gallons is left behind, do to both grain absorption and mashtun deadspace.  Your 6 gallons will contain:

in the mashtun there is 10 gallons at 1.075 = 750 points

you drained 6 gallons at 1.075 = 450 points or

6/10 * 750 points = 450 points

This calculation is then repeated for then next sparge based on the points left in the mash.

I remember working thru these calculations initially and verified that batch sparge efficiency is maximized when your batch sparge is equal to the amount you initially drain from the mashtun.  So if you initially drain 6 gallons and then add another 6 gallons that will maximize your sparge efficiency.

I really prefer the look/feel/interface of your product over promash, but at this point I'm doing a lot of different recipes.  I need to be able to calculate a reasonable estimate of the OG.  Let me now what you think of that link, I've been using those calcs for almost 5 years.

Mark

 
Thanks Mark,
  I appreciate the article - I'll print it out and look it over this weekend.

Brad
 
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