Batch Sparge Rounds?

Hello all,

This is my first post here on this forum though I've been referring to this forum when I have questions ever since I started all grain brewing and bought BeerSmith which I guess will be about ten months now. 

I have a question concerning batch sparging (one more to add to the long list I assume).  Specifically, I'm wondering how many rounds will produce the highest efficiency.  I realize conventional wisdom (If I have it right, I may very well not) says that you should take your first runnings and then batch sparge with enough water so that your second runnings will equal the first.  So for example, if I want to boil 7 gallons to yield something in the neighborhood of 5.5 gallons of wort I would calculate the mash volume (e.g. 1.25 qts per lb of grain) which for a typical batch of beer will not yield the 3.5 gallons in the first runnings.  So, to make up for this I will calculate how much liquid the grains will hold (roughly its weight in liquid?) and then compensate for this volume plus the extra I need to yield the 3.5 and I would add this in a mash out step? 

Provided I do this, I would then batch sparge with approximately 3.5 gallons of water to yield the 7 gallons headed to the brew pot (My system has very little deadspace).  Does this sound right?  I'm wondering what would happen if you changed the volumes of the additional infusions (mash out and batch sparge) and added an additional round of sparging?

For example, instead of doing one batch sparge round with 3.5 gallons what would the effect be if I broke it into two rounds of 1.75 gallons?

The reason I ask is although I've never done it exactly like this I have messed with the mash out volume. For instance only adding whats been taken by the grain and then adjusting the sparge volumes based on how much my first running was.  I also seem to be more efficient when I have more rounds though I'm wondering if this is due to other factors like sparge and mash out temp? 

Any insight would be helpful. 

Thanks

WR 

Hi,
  The optimal batch sparge would be two rounds with an equal amount of runnings from each batch/round.  You can prove this if you do a lot of math.

  This happens to be the default batch sparge option if you are using the latest BeerSmith update - it should produce two rounds with equal runnings.

Cheers,
Brad

Hi Wildrover welcome to the forum. I will attempt to answer some of your questions to the best of my knowledge. For me, the thing to remember is: "I'm making beer, How bad can it be? It will still be beer in the end!"

Wildrover said:

Specifically, I'm wondering how many rounds will produce the highest efficiency.  I realize conventional wisdom (If I have it right, I may very well not) says that you should take your first runnings and then batch sparge with enough water so that your second runnings will equal the first.

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Sparging should end whenever the specific gravity of the sparg reaches 1.010 or you reach your boil volume. Which ever comes first. For me, I always reach my boil volume before I reach an SG of .010. With a efficiency range of 70-80%. Trust BeerSmith, It will get you in the ballpark! But I always have more water ready.

Wildrover said:

So, to make up for this I will calculate how much liquid the grains will hold (roughly its weight in liquid?)

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BeerSmith compensates for the amount of water absorbed by the grains. Not all grains are the same and use the same amount of water. Time, Temperature, and Type are all factors in the amount of water the grains will use. Expect it to never be exact and adjust as needed.

Wildrover said:

and then compensate for this volume plus the extra I need to yield the 3.5 and I would add this in a mash out step?

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The purpose of the Mash Out is to turn off the enzymes in preparation for the Sparg. So you would add only enough water to bring the temp up to 168 deg F and let it rest for 10-15 min. Then you would batch sparg with the remainder of the water, making sure it is not over 175 deg F and not under 168 deg F. If it goes over 175, you have the potential of adding flavors that are not desirable to your beer. If it goes under you have the potential to reactivate the enzymes.

Wildrover said:

I'm wondering what would happen if you changed the volumes of the additional infusions (mash out and batch sparge) and added an additional round of sparging?

Click to expand...

This would add additional time to your brew day (If you are doing more than two) and is not necessary, but it is your brew day so do it any way you want and enjoy yourself, have an extra HB while your at it. How bad can it be, your brewing beer!

Wildrover said:

For example, instead of doing one batch sparge round with 3.5 gallons what would the effect be if I broke it into two rounds of 1.75 gallons?

Click to expand...

Brad answered this already.

Wildrover said:

The reason I ask is although I've never done it exactly like this I have messed with the mash out volume. For instance only adding whats been taken by the grain and then adjusting the sparge volumes based on how much my first running was.  I also seem to be more efficient when I have more rounds though I'm wondering if this is due to other factors like sparge and mash out temp?

Click to expand...

Mash out with enough water to bring the temp up to 168. Batch Sparg with two equal rounds of 168 water, which should equal the amount of water needed to bring the kettle up to Boil volume. Keep it simple. Remember, for most people this is a hobby. Most Importantly DWHAHB

Cheers

Preston

Thanks for the answers Brad and Preston.  It sounds like I've actually been doing it fairly close to what will yield the greatest efficiency.  Just to be sure we're talking the same thing when we say batch sparging with two round of equal volumes we are basically talking about three runnings right?  The first runnings is the initial mash volume then two runnings for each round of sparging?

Scratch my last question, I've been playing with BeerSmith and it looks like the three runnings, two rounds of batch sparge is the way to go which is actually the way I've been doing it.  Though the volumes are rarely, if ever exactly equal (Close though)

So what are your feelings on adding the mash out volume?  Do people do this or do they avoid this step, I've heard some people do a 'sort of' mash out in that they aren't as concerned about stopping enzyme activity so much as they are putting back the water the grains take, while others are obviously trying to stop enzyme activity?  Though, from what I've read if you batch sparge this step isn't really necessary but others argue it will make you more efficient.

Wildrover said:

So what are your feelings on adding the mash out volume?  Do people do this or do they avoid this step, I've heard some people do a 'sort of' mash out in that they aren't as concerned about stopping enzyme activity so much as they are putting back the water the grains take, while others are obviously trying to stop enzyme activity?  Though, from what I've read if you batch sparge this step isn't really necessary but others argue it will make you more efficient.

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Personally, I use a Protein rest (30 min at 130 deg F prior to sacrification) and a Mash out (As stated in previous post). I have modified a Mash profile to include both. But that is just me.  I like to make sure the grains are ready to give all that they can give... From what I have read, its not necessary with todays barley. It also increases your brew day by about 45 min. For me its worth it. As far as efficiency goes, sometimes I hit 85% efficiency. Just depends on if you cross you Fingers and the wind is blowing in the right direction. It all goes back to what I said earlier: "I'm making beer, How bad can it be? It will still be beer in the end!"

I have attached them for your review. Note that the PH is 5.2 because I use 5.2 PH Stabilizer. If you don't use it, change this to your water PH.

Cheers

Preston

Thanks for the profiles.  You actually touched on what was going to be my very next question which was the use of a protein rest.  I did that for my last two batches of beer and my efficiency was close 80 and 79%.  So I guess just because you don't need to do one doesn't mean there isn't some value to it none the less?  I also agree that an extra 45 minutes added to the brew day is a small price to pay for making better beer. 

The volume of water in the protein rest mash profiles seems really high though.  By the time you get to your sach rest isn't the volume out the 1.5 qts per lbs of grain limit, or is this number (1 - 1.5 qts of water per lb of grain) a bit flexible? 

Everything is flexible. As long as you use nail the temps for the Saccrification rest and Mash out you will be fine.

Cheers

Preston

Preston,

I've been looking at your mash profiles, I like the protein rest because like I said, I've always reached greater efficiency when I've done this.  I hope I'm not beating a dead horse at this point but every answer seems to provoke another question.  So, my next one is the volume of sparge water you use.  Looking at your profiles I'm guess you are somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 gallons for your first running.  Say, if you wanted to boil seven gallons (as I often do) we're looking at two round of only a gallon each.  Is that enough?

Make no mistake, I am learning also. When I stop learning, I get bored and move on. So far that has not happened to me in this hobby. I don't mind sharing what I have learned in an effort to help, so all questions are welcome.

That is correct the first runnings are about 4.5-5 gallons. Depending on the recipe and the style, my boil times are normally 90 min but have been as long as 120 min. Lengthening you boil time would increase your water needed by 1-1.5 Gallons. I usually sparg until I reach my boil volume then stop, and usually get efficiencies anywhere from low/mid seventies to low eighties. You can continue to sparg with more water to get all the goodness out of the grains and then increase your boil times to bring down the volume. If you have room in your kettle. But it is not necessary, the protein rest and mash out help allot with the efficiency.
This lengthens my brew day's by an hour, and it works for me. Some people like to get the brew session completed in a timely manner. My days are fast paced at work so for me I enjoy a slow paced brew day, and the benefit to this is I get to enjoy more HB!

The thing I try to remember is this is a hobby, I try not to take it to seriously and I enjoy learning about it. Sometimes I make beer, and sometimes I make really good beer. Either way I'm making beer, how bad can it be.

Cheers

Preston

Thanks,

this conversation is helping a lot.  I was just thinking that if my first runnings are close to 5 gallons that two equal rounds of batch sparging will be with very little water.  I was thinking you had to have enough water to at least completely submerge all the grain.  For example, if I only sparge with a gallon for a typical 10-12 lb grain bill the consistency of the grist will be more like oatmeal rather than having any water above the grain bed?  I don't think I've ever read this anywhere it just seems intuitive that the more water you sparge with (per round) the more sugar you are likely to take from the grain?  Does such a large first running help compensate for the smaller amount of sparge water?

Wildrover said:

I was thinking you had to have enough water to at least completely submerge all the grain.  For example, if I only sparge with a gallon for a typical 10-12 lb grain bill the consistency of the grist will be more like oatmeal rather than having any water above the grain bed?  I don't think I've ever read this anywhere it just seems intuitive that the more water you sparg with (per round) the more sugar you are likely to take from the grain?  Does such a large first running help compensate for the smaller amount of sparg water?

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It is not necessary to submerge all the grain. I simply just stir the grist then vorlauf. Yes if you added more water you would get more sugars from the grist. But then you would have too much wort and end up boiling for 3+ hours. It is my opinion that the protein rest is the biggest factor in the starch conversion. It appears to me that there is more starch given up by the grist because of the protein rest, not the amount of sparg water

I hate to admit this but I think I got it    At least for this particular topic, I'll have many more questions to come.

I'm defending my dissertation proposal this Friday so to celebrate (Or drown my sorrows in a therapeutic exercise) I figured I'd make a nice summer ale (I don't lager, its hard enough keeping ale fermentation temps what they need to be here in Florida let alone a lager). 

I'll try to work out a mash schedule based on the protein rest and mash out schedules that you gave me.  I'll do some tweaking based on the recipe, how long I plan to boil and my equipment of course.  I'll let you know how it turns out. 

Any good summer ale recipe would be great as well, any on the other board?

Thanks

WR