Author Topic: Mash Acid Addition  (Read 5460 times)

Offline Toy4Rick

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Mash Acid Addition
« on: June 15, 2018, 08:25:41 PM »
Hey Brad,

Playing with BS3, great so far  8)

Looking to understand the Mash Acid fields and where the value is coming from since I actually have 4ml of Lactic in this recipe

Thanks in advance
Rick

Offline Oginme

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2018, 05:59:22 AM »
When you have the acid addition in the recipe, the program does not recognize it for use in calculating the adjustment in pH.  You can look at the acid addition recommendation on the mash tab and then use the 'mash pH acid additions' box next to the mash pH prediction to add the acid into the recipe. 

Previously, the program required the user to build the water outside of the recipe, and then import the water profile along with water adjustments into the recipe.  Now, you load up your base water and make these alterations within the recipe on the 'water' tab and 'mash' tab.  This should allow you to make adjustments to the water profile and pH with the affect of that specific grain bill being taken into account.
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Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2018, 07:38:11 AM »
Thanks Oginnme,

So 2 locked fields telling us how much lactic to add.

OK, so following this through, I took a test recipe that has 4ml of lactic and bumped my Carafa III from 12oz to 3lbs and the recommended acid addition when from 9.4ml to 10.6ml

Dark roasted grains push ph down, why the need for more lactic?

Based on the Adjusted Mash Ph going lower than desired, I had to reduce the lactic from 4 to 2mls, which seems right to me

What am I missing?
Rick

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2018, 11:34:35 AM »
The fields are not locked - but the use of the final mash adjustment has changed.  In the past it was the "main" mash adjustment and now it is typically used for a final adjustment based on mash pH.

If you go to the mash tab and look on the bottom right section you can set the "Acid" field to none and it won't show a final mash adjustment on the brew sheet.

Brad
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Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2018, 07:17:06 PM »
Anyone on why when I add more Carafa III, the suggested lactic amount goes up?

Rick

Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2018, 02:30:14 PM »
Brad, anyone on why when I add more Carafa III, the suggested lactic amount goes up?

Rick

Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2018, 03:37:49 PM »
Brad, anyone on why when I add more Carafa III, the suggested lactic amount goes up?

Rick

Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2018, 09:06:34 AM »
Bump, please anyone

Offline GigaFemto

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2018, 10:09:57 AM »
Without an exported recipe attached it is hard to tell, but I did notice something that may  be relevant. The acid suggestion on the mash tab is a "final mash adjustment". It is a suggestion to bring your mash from the MEASURED mash pH to the target pH, not from the predicted or Adjusted mash PH. If you add a grain or change your water you must reset the measured mash pH (go to the Session tab and Clear Session Data or Clear Field with measured Mash pH selected). If you don't change the measured mash pH then I don't know what will happen, but you can get results that are backwards.

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Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2018, 08:19:55 PM »
Thanks GF for the info

While I hear what you are saying, sounds like a bug to me.  No way in haties should we have to go back and reset fields when changing grain values.  The SW is supposed to be quick easy to use

Here is the test recipe

Rick

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2018, 08:51:00 PM »
Changing the grain bill or water amounts will definitely change the predicted mash pH.  This is because grains add acidity to the mash.  That's why I recommend adjusting your water profile and mash pH as the last step before you brew.

Brad
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Offline Oginme

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2018, 04:19:53 AM »
What GF has stated is significant.  The acid addition responds to the grain bill as well as the measured pH versus target. 

SO, keeping the target the same I increased the amount of Carafa Special by about 30% in your recipe (0.340 grams to 0.450 grams), which is a very significant change.  The recommended amount of Lactic acid does go up from 4.5 ml up to 4.6 ml, mostly because the predicted pH goes down from 5.22 to 5.20 with the increase in CS3.  This greater (?) difference between the predicted and the measured drives the software to add a very significant amount of acid (0.1 ml) [tongue in cheek here]. 

In the end, I would guess that this change and difference is well within the accuracy of your pH measurement.  Given that most of the pH meters geared towards home brewers are only accurate within 0.02 for the best and 0.1 for the cheapest I am having some concern that we are kicking the goat for producing a teaspoon less of milk when we are measuring in quarts.

Seriously, RDWHAHB!
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Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2018, 07:46:15 AM »
Oginme,

The amount is not the issue here.

My point is this, when adding more acid from dark grain, why did the suggested acid amount go up?  Even in your example, the predicted ph went down, as i would expect from adding more Carafa, why then did the lactic go up, which would further drive the ph down below the target

Apparently I am missing something very basic

Rick

Offline Oginme

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2018, 01:54:41 PM »
Let my be more direct:

You have set your pH target for 5.2.  The program estimates your pH to be 5.22, your MEASURED pH reads 5.4.  The program estimates that you will need 4.5 ml of acid to bring from pH down from 5.4 to 5.22.

Now I increase the CS3 up from 0.34 kg to 0.45 kg.  The estimated pH drops to 5.20 and the program now calculates that you will need ml of acid to bring your pH down from 5.4 to 5.2. 

The program is responding to the greater difference in pH by adding MORE acid, which is exactly what it SHOULD do.  Go back and read Gigafemto's analysis because I think he hits it right on the head. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 07:10:35 PM by Oginme »
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Offline GigaFemto

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Re: Mash Acid Addition
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2018, 06:08:49 PM »
Apparently I am missing something very basic

...or something acidic   ;D

--GF

 

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