AG beginnings - trying to use gravity

So I am going to EVENTUALLY start all grain brewing.  A month ago, I would have bet that I'd have one done, but I ran into resistance at home. :-[

After pouting, I decided that It will give me a few more weeks to think through what I'm going to do.

Equipment on hand:
Bro in laws turkey fryer with 8 gallon pot (propane powered)  He might have another 6-7 gallon pot too.
5 gallon pot (from my partial mash batches)
60QT Cooler Tun
60' Copper IC
JSP Maltmill
6 Gal Glass Carboys -I favor them for fermentation
6.5 Gal Bucket used for various things
Cheapa$$ metal table
Good steel sawhorses
Various wood

Probable Locations:  Assume Cold in Illinois
Garage Pros- Lighted, music, somewhat warmer than outside
Cons- It is wood, water will need to be moved via hose for Immersion Chiller

Outside Garage Pros- Concrete pad, without wood structure to burn
Cons -Windy/Cold

Deck Pros- One more level to utilize for gravity, Water (maybe if it is not frozen), Closer run inside
Cons- Wood deck, outside, windy

I can't remember if the big pot as a valve.  I think so.  Otherwise, I am thinking of the Papazian saucepan ladel technique.

Here is what I've been thinking of doing. (Five Gallon Batch with 7-8 gallons of runnings to boil down.)

Use 8 gallon pot to heat strike water. 
Dough in
put remaining water in 5 gallon pot/top back up to as close to 5 gallons as I can get.
collect runnings into big pot.

I'm wondering if 5 gallons will be enough sparge water.

I don't have beersmith with me-its on home pc.  But guesstimate on a APA  15lbs grain X 1.33quarts per lbs=19.95 quarts or about 5 gallons of strikewater.

I'll need to model my actual runnings to see how much more sparge water I'll need.

I hear of guys using a bucket to collect their runnings, then pouring them into the boil pot and my thought is one less move would be better.

Obviously, I need to do some software modeling before I set out.  Eventually, i'll have a keggle HLT and Boil pot and some time of planed out frame or scheme.

I also understand I'll be extremely manual, and probably have to lift heavy stuff.  (I might have bro-in-law on hand for that)

Anyone have any tips?

Any concerns with working in the garage?  I'm leaning towards that locale for now.  It's not the kind of place where you worry about a little mess.  I'd have fire extinguisher(s) ready.  probably plan to leave the main door open for ventilation.

I brew in the garage, but with open doors.

Deal with lifting heavy water first.  Don't lift hot water above your shoulder to get it into a mash tun so you can begin using gravity from the tun into the boil pot.

I made a wooden three tier gravity feed system.  At the top I heat my sparge water and drain it directly into the mash tun.  Then it goes into the boil kettle. From there into the carboy.

I use a converted kettle for an HLT.  It has a ball valve and a sight glass.  I fill the HLT using an RV hose attached directly to my outdoor water spigot.  Today it is -10F.

What have I learned?  If I am going to use gravity I would be more careful in measuring necessary heights for the two by four & plywood brewing structure.  I  would begin measuring from the top of the carboy to determine the height of the brew kettle, then the Mash Tun and finally the HLT.  Mine is ok, but I ended up a bit high once the HLT is added.  I do have to lift an empty kettle up to the HLT burner, and then take it down when it has unneeded water in the dead space.

But it is much, much better than lifting hot water and dumping it into the Tun.

Look at safety first, especially when frozen water is around.

Yeah, the "slightly" dangerous thing I do is having my HLT slightly above my head level.  I only fill to 4.5G of the 5G, put the lid on, then set it down on my bench, adjust my hands and lift CAREFULLY up to 6ft 1" on my toes.    If I had been EXTREMELY careful about heights, I could probably have it 12 inches down, but then I'd bang my head on it.  I just know that I can only fill to 4.5G at ONE time in the HLT.

My setup is the last post of this page:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1061&start=315

You can see how the keggle height determines the height of the 10G Gott mashtun.  The mashtun's spigot empties through the keggle handle cutout.  You can see how high the HLT is.  Looking at it now, maybe I should drop it down a foot....

Yea Cool! Maybe I'll fabricate something to at least start with the HLT up high.

Bro in law has a 8 gallon and 6 gallon kettles.  He says he is in.  So i got my braun.  I just need to think this through so no onw gets burnt.

Maybe even plan ahead slightly to allow for my keggles. 

Man Henway you look like you have a laboratory there.  NICE ;D

Henway said:

Yeah, the "slightly" dangerous thing I do is having my HLT slightly above my head level.  I only fill to 4.5G of the 5G, put the lid on, then set it down on my bench, adjust my hands and lift CAREFULLY up to 6ft 1" on my toes.    If I had been EXTREMELY careful about heights, I could probably have it 12 inches down, but then I'd bang my head on it.  I just know that I can only fill to 4.5G at ONE time in the HLT.

My setup is the last post of this page:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1061&start=315

You can see how the keggle height determines the height of the 10G Gott mashtun.  The mashtun's spigot empties through the keggle handle cutout.  You can see how high the HLT is.  Looking at it now, maybe I should drop it down a foot....

Click to expand...

Henway....

I see what you mean.  You could lower that a bit.  I would to be a bit more safe.

Could you drop the keggle down a bit as well?  That would allow the whole system to come down actually in two stages, lower the Tun by the same amount you lower the keggle, then lower the HLT by what we see already plus what you gain on the Tun drop.

Now, you may have concern about a burner too close to the floor, but...What about some sort of heat resistant blanket to lay on the floor?

Ah, forgot to tell why the keggle is at that height--it's so I can gravity dump the water into the 10G Gott.  I suppose I could use the pump for that, but I generally only hook up the pump as the wort is getting up to boil.  I guess it's just me adhering to an old process.

Also, forgive me if I think I'm brilliant ( ) but I also have a water heater aluminum pan (I think you can barely see it stored under the sink in the pic) that I stick under the area of the keggle to disperse the heat and to catch the inevitable drops of water/wort that escape.  I'd use this even if I had a turkey fryer, because after the brewing I can just take the entire pan and dump it in the sink.

Linoleum DOES turn color from heat.  I have a black and white checkerboard in the "proper" garage and brewed on my turkey fryer there before and have "shadows" from the equipment.  But with the aluminum water heater pan in place, the orange has been fine.  I guess I could stick a welding blanket under it too if there was a problem...

Thanks guys,

I am going garage.  I think 2/7.  I'm going to pick up the pots and burner this weekend and toy with how things will work. 

I won't have any valves -except the mashtun.

So I'm thinking pretty bootleg arraingment:
-Burner on ground
-Mashtun on sawhorses
-Heat Strikewater, Ladel into mashtun
-Heat Spargewater
-Collect runnings in big pot. 
-Go rookie go!

Hmmm-I think I can get a furniture dolly-just a basic platform with casters that might be nice to roll the burner and pot closer to the door during the cooling phase while using my IC.

When I build my brewsite, some of my helpful hints will have to do with measuring:

For example, I fretted a lot about the proper ammount of top off water during partial mashes in my 6 gallon carboys.  -Obvious solution- Measure 5 gallons of water in and put a piece of electrical tape there.

So what about the pot?  From what I have read, A hardwood dowel with some measurements carved in it is nice.  Seems like If I could measure 5, 6, & 7 Gallons for this particular temporary pot, I'd be AG (All Good)

My only other worries are the capdem tablet/chlorimide situation.  And PH. 

I have test strips, but no recourse right now if the PH is off.  Would I just add more water to dilute? 

I'm attached to the idea of using minimal adjuncts.  I use extract and Irish Moss right now.  I'd like to reduce that to just IM.  (I'm considering corn, rice, rye, etc. to be fair game since they are "natural")

Anyway...

Any other little tricks?

p.s. I boosted your karma, henway and rep

I saw your point on the stick and making sure to allow for IC displacement.

Brilliant Henway!

Something he does on his website which I have been told is bad is he is adding his strike water to the grain already in the mashtun.  I have always put in AT LEAST 3 inches of water before I put in the grain.  If you add water to grain already in there, you risk having a stuck sparge.  I've never had one happen, but I've heard they're a collosal pain.

Heat strikewater, pour SOME of it in your mashtun, then put your grain in, then put the rest of the water in.  Since you don't have a valve on your pot yet, you can either heat water as needed and dump the entire pot in, or do the ladle (suggest having a LARGE SS cooking bowl).  If you're doing this, again, I suggest heavy Butyl or Nitrile gloves to protect you from the water heat.

Definitely, a dolly is a good thing.  Use the aluminum water heater overflow pan on it and you're set to have a safe platform that won't drip and get you in trouble with your SWMBO.

Don't worry about PH. If it's municipal water, it should be OK.  If you're on a well, that's a different discussion.  If you're worried about Chloramide, fill up your vessels with how much water you're going to need at least a day before your brew.  If you're worried about chloramine, then you'll want some potassium metabisulfite.  Then again, from my understanding, it can only be detected in very light beers.  If you're brewing something a bit stronger, it shouldn't be a problem.  Take all my opinion here with a grain of salt--I've never had to do any adjustments but that may not be the case for you.

Final suggestion is using foam control.  http://morebeer.com/view_product/15464//Foam_Control
Best invention.  Ever.
Be prepared for boil-overs when first coming to a boil and when you add anything (especially hops).  You will come to know the smell of burnt wort--we've all been there.  People suggest a spray bottle of water handy, but that's never worked well for me.  Some people have a little fan focused on the top of the water.  That will be my next brewery upgrade...

Henway said:

Final suggestion is using foam control.  http://morebeer.com/view_product/15464//Foam_Control
Best invention.  Ever.

Click to expand...

Big ditto, +1, etc. on foam control.  "Ferm-Cap S" is the trade name I've used.  One drop is usually enough to erase the building boilover foam.  If you think the ferm may blow out, you can use it there as well. 

Henway, That is funny, I saw those fans on some of the ornate brew sculptures out there.

I'll say this boil should be supervised.  Except for bathroom visits, I plan to be right there for the duration.  Will there be distractions?  Only if Beer, maybe pizza, and maybe air guitar count. I'm sure the burner and space heater will keep us warm.  I'll don the wool socks, lined jeans, flannel and carhart, Bro-in-law will wear shorts and the merrill snow cloggs and be fine.  

I have had the pleasure in boiling over on our stove.  Yuk.  

Thanks for the tip on putting water first in the mashtun-You know I was thinking, "I'll just grind the grain the night before right into it.  It has wheels...It'll be easy and save a step"

I have several 8 Quart Stainless Bowls, but I just realized that I should get at least a 2 quart or bigger pyrex.  Our 1QT is Oxo and I've been meaning to get something bigger with a solid handle and easy to read lines.  

I find many turkey fryers come with aluminum pots, which is fine when they contain hot oil. 
You may already know, but aluminum will leach into acidic liquid.
Diary is slightly acidic, as is wort.
In otherwords you don't make a dairy based sauce in an aluminum pot unless you want it to turn gray, nor do you brew a batch of beer in such a vessel.

I don't know what you know so you may already know this, but I wanted to say it anyway.

I've heard that too, and have friends with aluminum and stainless pots, so I Googled it just now.  Opinions vary, so everyone should check it out and make an informed choice.  I did not find a brewing-specific link, but brewing is quite different from frying an egg on a teflon or anodized aluminum skillet for a couple minutes.  An "ideal" pH of 5.3 is somewhat acidic (but it's not lemon juice), and we're typically boiling at 212F for over an hour.  That high heat and length of boil combined with the other chemical reactions that occur in the pot could make aluminum brew pots leach more than the things that have been better tested. 

http://www.thedietchannel.com/Alzheimers-Disease.htm

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05/ask_treehugger_16.php

I've heard similar concerns about hot water leaching petroleum-based plastic chemicals from coolers used as mash tuns, sorta like that BPA concern in baby bottles.  And there's the propane fumes we inhale, and the beer we drink........... :-\

I have have read up on the pot quandary in the past.  Lots of guys on tastybrew use aluminum.

One last ditch possibility is that the "empty sanke keg fairy" just emailed me.  So I could use the aluminum as a HLT and the stainless as a boil pot (where the ph comes into play.)  I might not have time to complete a total Keggle build (since I don't have the drill or hole saw and valve.) (I do have the cutoff grinder)

Otherwise, from what I have read, You boil some water in the aluminum first and it greys the inside.  This is layer of ions that shield the bare aluminum from the wort.

Malt, I agree with you on the crap that leaches.  That is part of the reason i've favored glass carboys.  Those are only a breakage hazzard.  Otherwise, you know what you got.

SOGOAK said:

...

Malt, I agree with you on the crap that leaches.  That is part of the reason i've favored glass carboys.  Those are only a breakage hazzard...

Click to expand...

I use one of these with my carboys:  The Brew Hauler.  I bought it at Northern Brewery:  http://www.northernbrewer.com/ferment.html

Don't haul carboys around without one.

I've been considering those carboy haulers.  I'm thinking that carrying the finnished beer in a pot too the basement and pouring it in the carboy down there is a better idea.

It eliminates more steps, snow, ice, and distance to travel with a carboy-since I don't know if i'll have the straps in time for the brew.

That has been my scheme with my stove top partial boils.

I have gotten lucky with the handles before.  But now realize that the neck is prone to snap off.

i just got one of the haulers for christmas, havent used it yet though, up until now i've been using those little clamp handle type things that clamp onto the top of the carboy....helps, but still a pain.

SOGOAK, let us know how your AG setup turns out, i am going to be buying supplies and building mine tomorrow/saturday

I will BBR.  I won't be able to brew until 2/7.  I'm just trying to make sure I'm good to go.  It is one thing when I have to run to the basement 5 times to get a equipment when its right downstairs.  It's another when there is snow and ice in the mix.

I was foolish enough to carry the carboy downstairs with just the clamp handle.  Lucky too.  Once i started using a chiller and wanted to use the water feed and slop sink in the basement anyway, I stopped carrying carboys up and down.  Now they just stay in the 1882 brewery.

I'm really hoping to make the keggle happen for the boil pot at least.

One project I have been toying with is gravity feeding from my boil kettle placed on my patio using food grade tubing.  I would run the tube through an open basement window to a carboy sitting in a sink in the basement.

A simple in-line ball valve placed near where the tube enters the carboy would serve as an emergency shutoff valve.

Anybody see a problem with this?

I think it could be cool Rep.  I've had a couple thoughts about how there is a separation between the boil and the next few phases of making beer. 

It is funny how much attendtion the first 4-5 hours get when the babysitting, testing, and eventual pacakging are just and important and almost "disconnected" from the boil.  Like two separate sets of equipment.

I haven't boiled in a month, yet up until Saturday I had 15 gallons of beer in different stages of completion.

Then I thought I'd begin leaving some of the "Boil" equipment out in the garage.  In reading my posts, i'm obviously a couple steps from worrying about transferring beer into the cellar.  But thinking forward, imagine a 10 gallon batch.  Why not just stand there filling the 2 fermentors with wort. Pitch, then stow.  then that part is "done" for a week or so. 

Then you can do the clean up portion. Would you then send flush water through with sanitizer?

That might be a photo and share idea.  I haven't read of anyone else doing that. 

I suppose the "skip to cornies argument" could surface, but that same hose system would work.