Getting too low of a final gravity

So I brewed a double a  last week which had an Original Gravity of 1.074.  After about 7 days of fermentation with WLP500 yeast I did a measure while transferring to secondary and the gravity was 1.010.  I also did a quick taste and it seems like the body is pretty light but still has a nice complexity.  The gravity measurement is way off of what my Beersmith recipe said I should be at.  This is actually the second time this happened to me and I was wondering what I could do the fix this.  I was thinking that maybe I let it ferment too long and should have pushed it to secondary at around 3-4 days rather than 7.  I posted my recipe from Beersmith for reference.

As a note, I did make my own candi suryp



Type: All Grain
Date: 5/2/2009

Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: James Berkheimer
Boil Size: 6.92 gal Asst Brewer: Brad Titus
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Brew Pot (12.5 gal) and Igloo Cooler (10 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00
Taste Notes:


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Dingemann's Bel (1.5 SRM) Grain 64.00 %
1.00 lb Caravienne Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 8.00 %
1.00 lb Special B Malt Dingemann's (130.0 SRM) Grain 8.00 %
0.50 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.50 oz Styrian Goldings [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 6.5 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [3.60 %] (60 min) Hops 5.9 IBU
0.50 oz Styrian Goldings [4.00 %] (20 min) Hops 4.0 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [3.60 %] (20 min) Hops 3.6 IBU
2.00 lb Belgian Candi Suryp #1 (8.0 SRM) Sugar 16.00 %
1 Pkgs Trappist Ale (White Labs #WLP500) [Starter 35 ml] Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.070 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG

Measured Original Gravity: 1.074 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG

Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.06 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 8.37 %
Bitterness: 19.9 IBU Calories: 333 cal/pint
Est Color: 18.3 SRM Color:
Color


Mash Profile
Mash Name: Double Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 10.50 lb
Sparge Water: 2.72 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH


Double Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
15 min Acid Rest Add 8.00 qt of water at 122.8 F 113.0 F
35 min Beta Amalase Rest Add 4.55 qt of water at 211.5 F 144.0 F
25 min Saccrification Add 3.80 qt of water at 211.3 F 158.0 F
5 min Mash Out Add 6.50 qt of water at 211.3 F 172.0 F

I suspect that your mash times/temperatures were off.  The 144F would yield an extremely fermentable wort.  BeerSmith "Predicts" attenuation on the attenuation assigned to the yeast in the yeast database and not on temperature. 

You are in the ball park of what I would expect with a 10.5 lb grain bill and your mash profile.

Fred

bonjour said:

I suspect that your mash times/temperatures were off.  The 144F would yield an extremely fermentable wort.  BeerSmith "Predicts" attenuation on the attenuation assigned to the yeast in the yeast database and not on temperature. 

You are in the ball park of what I would expect with a 10.5 lb grain bill and your mash profile.

Fred

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Thanks for the reply Fred.  So I need to work on adjusting my mash steps, cool.  This was my first attempt at this complex of a step mash so I guess I should have expected to be off.  My first Dubble used a single step mash as well which also came out with a very low FG.  But thinking back  on it we held the mash as about the same temp.  Hmm, much to think about and play with for my next attempt.

Cheers!
James

Yea, the 2.5# of specialty malts should provide enough unfermentables that your mash should focus on ensuring a complete ferm of the rest, i.e., all that malt and simple sugars, before the yeast get drunk and tired.  Honestly, 20% of dark specialties may be a tad high for a big beer like this. 

If you mashed at 144F on the first batch as well, then I would recommend trying 149 or 150F for a single infusion. 

The other step would be to check your thermometer and hydrometer to confirm they're accurate.  Some LHBS hydro's are very cheaply made and the paper insert slides around. 

MaltLicker said:

Yea, the 2.5# of specialty malts should provide enough unfermentables that your mash should focus on ensuring a complete ferm of the rest, i.e., all that malt and simple sugars, before the yeast get drunk and tired.  Honestly, 20% of dark specialties may be a tad high for a big beer like this. 

If you mashed at 144F on the first batch as well, then I would recommend trying 149 or 150F for a single infusion. 

The other step would be to check your thermometer and hydrometer to confirm they're accurate.  Some LHBS hydro's are very cheaply made and the paper insert slides around. 

Click to expand...

Yeah, I purposely shot for a higher ratio of specialties as an experiment.  That's a great point on checking the equipment.  I never thought of the hydrometer being bad.  It's not likely but it never hurts to check.  I think my next batch I'm going to stick with my mash steps but tone down the specialties a tad and shoot for a slightly higher gravity.  My ideal would be an OG of 1.075 and an FG of 1.012.  But now I know that I need to pay more attention to my mashing temp and my grain make up.  Thanks guys.

Berkyjay said:

I never thought of the hydrometer being bad.  It's not likely but it never hurts to check. 

Click to expand...

Oh yea, we did a test at a brew session and they were all over the place.  Plus, a hydro requires four ounces (cooled) to fill the tube, hydros roll around and break, etc. 

Berkyjay said:

My ideal would be an OG of 1.075 and an FG of 1.012.  But now I know that I need to pay more attention to my mashing temp and my grain make up.  Thanks guys.

Click to expand...

One word:  refractometer.  Not only b/c cheap hydros are not always reliable, but a refractometer would make hitting exactly 1.075 on something like this dubbel easy.  With a few drops of wort, you can check the SG in the boil kettle at 15 minutes and know exactly how much more cane sugar to add to hit your mark.  For that matter, how much DME to hit the target OG of any brew you make.   (Or water required if you are high, but at least the water gets boiled.) 

Edit PS:  For those interested, refractometers are usually available on ebay for ~$38 delivered. 

MaltLicker said:

Berkyjay said:

I never thought of the hydrometer being bad.  It's not likely but it never hurts to check. 

Click to expand...

Oh yea, we did a test at a brew session and they were all over the place.  Plus, a hydro requires four ounces (cooled) to fill the tube, hydros roll around and break, etc. 

Berkyjay said:

My ideal would be an OG of 1.075 and an FG of 1.012.  But now I know that I need to pay more attention to my mashing temp and my grain make up.  Thanks guys.

Click to expand...

One word:  refractometer.  Not only b/c cheap hydros are not always reliable, but a refractometer would make hitting exactly 1.075 on something like this dubbel easy.  With a few drops of wort, you can check the SG in the boil kettle at 15 minutes and know exactly how much more cane sugar to add to hit your mark.  For that matter, how much DME to hit the target OG of any brew you make.   (Or water required if you are high, but at least the water gets boiled.) 

Click to expand...

Nice, I never knew that a refractometer was used to measure gravity.  I always assumed it was only used to determine color.  I will definitely look into one of those.  Thanks!

Just a side note to all. Cheap handheld refractometers are NOT accurate. They give a good estimate of what your gravity is (in brix generally), but they are by no means accurate. I used to use one at my brewery as a reference for what brix I was getting throughtout my lautering, but when checked side by side with a very expensive, labroatory calibrated hydrometer ($135 a piece for 1-9 plato, 7-16 plato and 14-24 plato) the refractometer was always off. I even had an expensive one that automatically adjusted for temperature, and still not quite right. A good quick reference tool though.

Darin

That's does bring up the issue of Brix vs. SG.....refractometers measure Brix (which is nearly identical to Plato).  So every Brix measurement you take is usually converted to SG, so the refractometer does kind of depend on those conversions.  I found a long, convoluted formula online that seems to work well.  The formula in BeerSmith is OK, but does not seem as tight above 1.040 as some I've used. 

In my comparisons to a lab-quality hydro, the refractometer has always been spot on.  And the benefit of a refractometer is really in the ease of testing and checking one's progress.  I also use it to monitor the mash, and rather than converting the Brix readings, I just monitor the rate of change.  When it stops increasing, I figure conversion is nearly complete. 

If you have a hydro you trust, you can take the final OG and FG with that and enjoy the larger sample. 

I happen to like brews with a low final gravity. 
I figure it's all calories, and I'd rather my calories be from alcohol.

Seriously though I try to mash closer to 145 than 150.
Even if the style calls for a high mash temp and a high final gravity, I'll deviate from the style and standard recipe because I don't like heavy beers.

If you like cloying syrupy brews then by all means adjust your procedure to get closer to the prescribed style, or enjoy your "mistake" and try to do it again on purpose!

dhaenerbrewer said:

Just a side note to all. Cheap handheld refractometers are NOT accurate. They give a good estimate of what your gravity is (in brix generally), but they are by no means accurate. I used to use one at my brewery as a reference for what brix I was getting throughtout my lautering, but when checked side by side with a very expensive, labroatory calibrated hydrometer ($135 a piece for 1-9 plato, 7-16 plato and 14-24 plato) the refractometer was always off. I even had an expensive one that automatically adjusted for temperature, and still not quite right. A good quick reference tool though.

Darin

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Man, I am glad you made this side note.  I put aside some cash to buy a refractometer because I always hate taking such large samples for a hydrometer.  But the one I want to buy, http://www.oakbarrel.com/beermaking/refractometer_atc.shtml, is pretty pricey.  I was ready to drop the cash, but your post makes me hesitate now.  Can anyone give me some feedback on this particular device?  Is it worth the price?


And Maine Homebrewer,

Yes I do like lighter body beers as well.  My concern was that the alcohol was dominating the brew and I felt that it was because the gravity dropped so far from where it began.  I've been told that with some healthy aging my brew should mellow out.  So after 3 or so months I will see where it's at.

That looks like a nice one. Like I said, they are great for on the fly testing, and you only have to put a drop on. Looks like other people have had more success than me with them. For the homebrewer, I would say they would probably be OK. If you want extremely accurate readings, don't count on it. That's just my opinion.

Darin

dhaenerbrewer said:

That looks like a nice one. Like I said, they are great for on the fly testing, and you only have to put a drop on. Looks like other people have had more success than me with them. For the homebrewer, I would say they would probably be OK. If you want extremely accurate readings, don't count on it. That's just my opinion.

Darin

Click to expand...

Cool, thanks for the advice.  if it gets me in the ballbark without having to constantly take hydrometer readings then I will be satisfied.

Update on the Refractometer.  I went and bought one with ATC.  Can't say that I will find this too useful.  It seems that it isn't as accurate as the price would warrant and during my brew I just didn't find it useful.  I thought it would replace my hydrometer, but it looks like you have to team it up with a hydrometer to insure more accurate readings.  I feel that at this point in my brewing life it is an expense that I don't need.  But thanks for the suggestion everyone.