Somethings amiss.. once had nice hoppy aroma now gone

I've been AG brewing for 6 months or so.  Created my own recipe of a IPA loosely based on a Harpoon extract recipe.  The last two 5 gallon batches I've substituted dried leaf hops (Citra) due to lack of availability of pellet form of the hop.  The recipe uses Cascade and Citra and the Cascade I'm still using pellet.  I've not changed the process at all from during my last five batches, but the last two (that used leaf hops) the Citra "zing" is gone.  No aroma and no taste, just the Cascade taste with little aroma.  Again, the grain bill, protein rest, boil, cold break quick chilling, yeast strain,  fermentation, etc. has not changed at all.  The source I purchased the Citra from was a different source from where I purchased the pellet form of Citra BUT the dried leaf supplier stated "just use the same amount of dried leaf in your recipe that you used for pellet when you use leaf".  The batch I did last weekend (this will be potentially the third disappointing batch) I added 1/2 oz of the dried leaf Citra as first wort hopping (FWH).  Still in the fermentor and the aroma from the fermentor seems more intense than past batches.  I guess my next step would be FWH and dry hopping.  Is Citra recommended for dry hopping.

Not a nu be but not and expert either.  Advice is greatly recommended.  :-\

I dry hopped with Citra for an American IPA that I entered in a local competition and it placed very well. (4th over all)..

there is where you went wrong. whoever told you that you use the same amount of leaf hop as you do for pellet hop is mistaken. i believe the ratio is at least 2:1, but i've seen upwards in the 3:1 and 4:1 ratio. meaning, if you normally use 1 ounce of Citra pellet at 60 mins, you would need to use at least 2oz of citra flower at 60 mins to get the same results (given the AA is the same). remember, bitterness is at 60 mins, taste is at 15 mins, and aroma is at 5 mins. so where you are lacking add more..ie if you feel you have less aroma, add more than you normally do the last 5 mins. but all in all, i suggest if you use whole hops again, use 2-3 times more than you would than the same hop in pellet form..you may also need to have a bit more wort being that whole hops can soak it up..

The old rule of thumb has been to increase by 20% for leaf hops. I don't know what utilization factor BS2 uses.
But, there are a few other factors at work here. Pellets are a processed product and the AA% can be controlled. Leaf hops are not, they are controlled by nature. When determining the AA% of leaf hops, they stack up a couple of 50# bales, take a few small random samples, and average them. The margin of error could be 10% either way.
Because leaf hops have more surface area, they oxidize faster. This could be a factor.
Looking at the hops you are using, I checked the co-humulone percentages. This is what imparts that sharp, harsh, bitterness. Cascade has levels up to 40%AA, while Citra is around 25%AA. We could say that Cascade delivers it's sharp edge with a sledge hammer, and Citra uses a pillow. You may need to increase even more because of this.
Depending on which expert you are reading, FWH does or does not effect bitterness. I always FWH, usually with one of the Noble hops, but that is based on my tastes.
If you wish to dry-hop Citra, do it. It could bring out the aroma you are looking for.
If I made 2 batches of a beer, and they were consistently not up to par, I would start changing one thing at a time. Just document the changes and results. Sometimes you have to drink a lot of beer in the name of 'recipe development'.
HolyFirkins was correct, you need to increase your amounts. I was just trying to explain some of the reasons behind the changes.

When solving a beer problem, I always remember the advise of Asimov. He pointed out that most great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!" but with "That's funny."

Prost
Ed (Rusty)

that is some great insight..

Folks,


Thanks for the 2X advice, that's going into my recipe tomorrow.

sma

just brewed same recipe with 2X the amount of leaf Citra that I used for pellet Citra.  I also did not bag the Citra, rather just tossed loose into the wort.  Strained out using a spider at the end of the boil.  Seemed to work ok.  Now it's the wait for the taste.

Just transfered to secondary .... really nice aroma.  I can really smell the citra.  Sort of can't wait to give it a taste in a couple weeks.

that's great news..glad to hear it seems the problem has been resolved!

Opened the keg....excellent aroma and taste.. 2x the amount of leaf verses pellet solved the issues. Many thanks to all for the suggestions.

Good topic, I wish I had known this many batches ago. I couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting much hop flavor in my beers, despite spending mega bucks for locally grown organic leaf hops! Still so much to learn...... :-\