A question about storing after my first kegging session

Hi.

I had my first kegging session yesterday when I kegged my first Belgian brew, a clone of the great beer Maredsous 8, on my new cornelius keg. Now I wonder how I best can store the keg for the remainder of the conditioning phase.

I have no intention of storing the beer for more time than it takes to fully condition and I hope to be able to drink my completed beer in a months time or so. I put the filled keg in my beer refrigerator attached to a C02-tank. The refrigerator is keeping a temperature of 5 degrees centigrade (41 F) and the CO2 pressure is set to 1 bar (14.5 PSI). My idea is to keep the keg in the refrigerator for a week to fully cool and start carbonating. What do you think is the right thing to do after that week? Should I keep the keg in the refrigerator for the remaining time it takes to fully condition or should I remove it and store it warmer to get a quicker aging/conditioning? I have a wine cellar that is currently keeping a temperature of 18 degrees Celsius (64F) that could be a good alternative for the keg in that case.

Grateful if you could give me your 2 cents on this..

You can find more information about the beer and the kegging on my blog http://jurslabrew.inlumino.se/?p=465&lang=en

Brgds Anders

I usually get my keg cold then carbonate by cranking to 30 psi overnight. The next day I bleed it off, set it at dispensing pressure and check it. If its carbed I just let it sit cold for a while, if not I crank it back to 20 psi for another night and check it again the next day. Cold conditioning will take a little longer to clean up but it will be a cleaner beer in the end. If you let it condition warmer it will clean up quicker but will be a little fruitier beer in the end. Generally they say that every 10 degrees C will double the rate the yeast are working at. On a belgian I would probably let it condition warmer (but not too warm) for around two weeks then cool it down and let it sit till yer ready to serve it. The cellar sounds like a good option here.

maddspoiler said:

I usually get my keg cold then carbonate by cranking to 30 psi overnight. The next day I bleed it off, set it at dispensing pressure and check it. If its carbed I just let it sit cold for a while, if not I crank it back to 20 psi for another night and check it again the next day. Cold conditioning will take a little longer to clean up but it will be a cleaner beer in the end. If you let it condition warmer it will clean up quicker but will be a little fruitier beer in the end.

Click to expand...

What is your basis for that?  Ferm is virtually over, which is where temp gives fruit or spice.  There is nothing but some clean up of byproducts and mellowing happening (more slowly the colder it is kept).

maddspoiler said:

Generally they say that every 10 degrees C will double the rate the yeast are working at. On a belgian I would probably let it condition warmer (but not too warm) for around two weeks then cool it down and let it sit till yer ready to serve it. The cellar sounds like a good option here.

Click to expand...

If he pressurizes to 1 Bar prior to 'conditioning' (which it really isn't), there will be almost no work done by the yeast at any temp as they don't like pressures above .5 Bar.  There would be some aging/mellowing at the higher temps, and almost none at 5C.  Also, an ale yeast will be almost completely inactive at 5C, especially when most have been racked off.  The 10C rule is most likely for temps in the yeasts preferred range.

My protocol for a force carbonation would be let the keg sit unpressurized, but sealed (soda kegs may require a shot of pressure to initially seal) at cellaring temps for your desired mellowing/clean up period, then chill and force carb.  There may be a tiny amount of carb generated during the mellowing period, depending.

A better approach for belgians would be to truly 'condition' in the keg.  Use the proper amount of priming sugar (using a keg specific priming calculator, and adding priming yeast if desired), then let it sit at cellaring temps for the prescribed length of time for carb/aging.  Most belgians benefit from the secondary fermentation (in the bottle/keg) when trying to match a particular style, especially those that come conditioned in the belgian style bottle (or a keg/cask).  There will be a small amount of yeast that will be cleared out in the first pour.  After this, it is best not to disturb the keg, or more yeast may be stirred up.  If it happens, it will settle quickly, and usually less than 100ml would have to be purged.

If you don't care about yeast clean up, and want to pressurize immediately after kegging, you could just pressurize the keg at the proper pressure for the desire volumes of CO2 at your 18C cellar temp, and skip the 'chill to carb' step.  Then just let it mellow/age in the cellar under pressure.  You can remove the CO2 connection after ~3 weeks, as it will be fully carbonated by then.

Mrinlumino said:

Hi.

I had my first kegging session yesterday when I kegged my first Belgian brew, a clone of the great beer Maredsous 8, on my new cornelius keg. Now I wonder how I best can store the keg for the remainder of the conditioning phase.

Click to expand...

If by "conditioning" you mean carbonating at cold temps, then you can leave it at the current setting for a 2-3 weeks or increase the pressure to say 30 PSI for 3 or 4 days.  leaving it at this temp (4c) will clarify or brighten the beer.  The beer is usually left at this temp for serving.  Changing the storage temp will increase the staling rate so drink it within a couple months.  Moving the keg will disturb the sentiment and require about 24 hours to settle out. 

Conditioning also means to allow the beer to "clean up" less desirable byproducts of fermentation.  You would leave the beer on the yeast a few days at a few degrees (F) warmer temp that the fermentation temp.  Being a belgian, this is not generally the case as the temps are less controlled.  The conditioning is done after a couple weeks.

jomebrew said:

Conditioning also means to allow the beer to "clean up" less desirable byproducts of fermentation.

Click to expand...

While the term conditioning may be commonly (mis)used by the homebrew crowd to mean numerous things ranging from yeast clean up, aging, cellaring, lagering, etc.; everything I have read states that its true meaning is the act of achieving final carbonation using yeast and sugars.

jomebrew said:

You would leave the beer on the yeast a few days at a few degrees (F) warmer temp that the fermentation temp.  Being a belgian, this is not generally the case as the temps are less controlled.  The conditioning is done after a couple weeks.

Click to expand...

I would imagine that the length of time in the fermenter prior to conditioning (for carbonation), and the amount of time cellaring/aging after conditioning, is dependent on the type of beer being brewed along with personal preferences, which, in this case, is a clone of a particular belgian.  In general, as you stated, the beer would be left on the yeast after fermentation, even if only on the suspended ones if racked to a second vessel, at normal ferm temps for some period of time.

For ales, it is not not necessary to elevate temps, since ferm temps are within the active range for clean up.  The practice of elevating temps for ales seems to come from inappropriately applying the practice of elevating temps for lagers to promote clean up to ales.  This is straight from Dr. Bamforth, who should know about these things.

Yeast still works at lower temps and at pressure. Dont kid yourself.

Cold conditioning will take a little longer to clean up but it will be a cleaner beer in the end. If you let it condition warmer it will clean up quicker but will be a little fruitier beer in the end. Generally they say that every 10 degrees C will double the rate the yeast are working at.

Click to expand...

As Spoiler said every 10 degrees c slows or speeds yeast up by double. Palmer even says this in his book.  Yeast will continue to work and do their thing up to 5 years in some high gravity or belgian beers even in their bottle or keg. Yeah they are not fermenting but they are still there eating compounds created during fermentation. Unless you are filtering out the yeast they will be doing their thing for a while. Also ales just like lagers CAN benefit from a temp ramp period (usually as a diacetyl rest) for about 24 hours.

Hophead82 said:

Yeast still works at lower temps and at pressure. Dont kid yourself.

Click to expand...

I didn't say they stop working, I said they don't like pressure and slow down at low temps.  This is about what process to follow to allow the yeast to clean up after themselves, then condition (in the proper carbonation sense of the word).  The yeast will clean up better after themselves under lower pressures, and at normal ferm temps (or slightly below at cellar temps); as opposed to at 2 Bars and 5C.  Unless you want to retard your process for some reason, why would do otherwise?

Cold conditioning will take a little longer to clean up but it will be a cleaner beer in the end. If you let it condition warmer it will clean up quicker but will be a little fruitier beer in the end. Generally they say that every 10 degrees C will double the rate the yeast are working at.

Click to expand...

Hophead82 said:

As Spoiler said every 10 degrees c slows or speeds yeast up by double.

Click to expand...

I can guarantee that the 2x activity/10C is only valid for a small range of temps, and was most likely referring to a narrow range centered around a yeast's optimum temp.  As a quick sanity check, do you really think that if an ale is ferm'd at 0C, it will only take 4 times as long?  That would be ~4 weeks at 0C instead of 1 week at ~20C.  It may not even have even peaked at 4 weeks.

Hophead82 said:

Palmer even says this in his book.

Click to expand...

He also says this:
"Ale yeasts like warmer temperatures, going dormant below about 55°F (12°C)"
Dormant would mean 2/3 of ferm activity level according to you guys.

Palmer is a metallurgist, not a biologist specializing in yeast.  I have been in forums with Palmer since before he wrote his first book.  The beauty of those times was that people would keep their mouths shut, and wait for the specialists to answer the questions: Palmer was the guy for metals, and some other guy was for microbiology.

Hophead82 said:

Yeast will continue to work and do their thing up to 5 years in some high gravity or belgian beers even in their bottle or keg. Yeah they are not fermenting but they are still there eating compounds created during fermentation. Unless you are filtering out the yeast they will be doing their thing for a while.

Click to expand...

I already said this, only with more specific information, like the impact of temperature.

I didn't say anything different, and actually gave advice on how to optimize this activity, which you left out and even dismissed.  A major reason I suggested not chilling until ready to serve is because of these exact reasons.  Crashing a finished beer is similar to filtering.  The yeast will drop out, and, even when warmed, will largely remain settled until roused.  Without adding new sugars, they won't really reactivate as well either, and most will settle back out quickly.

Hophead82 said:

Also ales just like lagers CAN benefit from a temp ramp period (usually as a diacetyl rest) for about 24 hours.

Click to expand...

There are more than a few experts that think decreasing the temp a few degrees for an Ale diacetyl rest actually works better, but I don't think it has been hashed out yet.  At least one expert, the preeminent one, Dr. Bamforth, says specifically that ale yeast does not need an increase in temperature to assist with a diacetyl rest.  I already explained where the temp increase myth for an ale diacetyl rest came from, and provided a source for my info on diacetyl rest temps.  But then again, some dude on the internet said ales CAN clean up diacetyl better with a temp increase, so it must be true.