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Low Total Efficiency - High Mash Efficiency

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dwhyte14

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Hi,

I have been having a few brews where my volume of wort collected is lower than expected but my mash efficiency is higher.
Basically like brewing a big, high gravity beer.
I am diluting the wort in the kettle pre-boil to get to my expected pre-boil volume and gravity.

Question is, how do I equate for a higher than expected Mash Efficiency without adjusting the Total Efficiency figure and screwing all the readings up?

Thanks
 
I don't understand the question.  I'm not sure what you are trying to adjust. If your mash eff is higher then your total eff is going to be higher. But, the question is "why was it higher?"  if you don'tknow tthen I wouldn't adjust anything until you have repeated the results several times.
 
What I need to do is account for the dilution/kettle top up water I add.

A higher mash efficiency but lower amount of wort collected and diluted to correct levels. This will give me a higher total eff but how do I equate for the volumes in BeerSmith?
Where do I add the dilution water added to the kettle at the start of the boil?

I will work out why I didn't get the correct amount of collected wort.
Any thoughts?
 
Resurrecting this to ask if you found a resolution to this issue? I am having the same problem - Hitting my target numbers but not collecting enough wort, which causes efficiency to go down. I am typically short .75 to 1 gallon of final wort collected. I am also compensating for loss from trub by about 1.25 gallons as well as .25 gallon loss from deadspace in my mash tun in the software. Any help would be appreciated.
 
rimondi12 said:
Resurrecting this to ask if you found a resolution to this issue? I am having the same problem - Hitting my target numbers but not collecting enough wort, which causes efficiency to go down. I am typically short .75 to 1 gallon of final wort collected. I am also compensating for loss from trub by about 1.25 gallons as well as .25 gallon loss from deadspace in my mash tun in the software. Any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Can you post a recipe file, with all of your measured values filled in? Just highlight a recipe and click "Export Sel" from the ribbon.

Mashtun deadspace means uncollected wort. If the wort ends up in the kettle, then it's just additional water in your mash. Loss to trub means a lowering of Brewhouse Efficiency because it's sugar that doesn't end up in the fermenter. Do these definitions fit how you're expecting the numbers to work?

Usually, getting higher efficiency and lower starting volume happens to lower gravity worts. Mash efficiency isn't usually as high in high gravity worts unless an extended boil is used.
 
brewfun said:
rimondi12 said:
Resurrecting this to ask if you found a resolution to this issue? I am having the same problem - Hitting my target numbers but not collecting enough wort, which causes efficiency to go down. I am typically short .75 to 1 gallon of final wort collected. I am also compensating for loss from trub by about 1.25 gallons as well as .25 gallon loss from deadspace in my mash tun in the software. Any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Can you post a recipe file, with all of your measured values filled in? Just highlight a recipe and click "Export Sel" from the ribbon.

Mashtun deadspace means uncollected wort. If the wort ends up in the kettle, then it's just additional water in your mash. Loss to trub means a lowering of Brewhouse Efficiency because it's sugar that doesn't end up in the fermenter. Do these definitions fit how you're expecting the numbers to work?

Usually, getting higher efficiency and lower starting volume happens to lower gravity worts. Mash efficiency isn't usually as high in high gravity worts unless an extended boil is used.
Click to expand...

Sure I will add the recipe file to this thread when I get home. I've been having this problem with about 9/10 of my brews since I've started (I've brewed about 25 batches with Beersmith). Basically I set a target batch volume to transfer into my fermenter of about 5.25-5.5 gallons. After the boil I generally hit my final gravity but I am short about .75 - 1 gallon of wort. Technically speaking there is still about that much left in the kettle but I can't transfer it because it is amidst a cake of settled hot break, if that makes sense. I'm not sure if there is a way to compensate for the missing wort that I can't transfer or if one of my settings are off.

I'll post the file when I get home.
 
brewfun said:
Can you post a recipe file, with all of your measured values filled in? Just highlight a recipe and click "Export Sel" from the ribbon.
Click to expand...

Here is a recent recipe where I had this problem:

 

Attachments

  • Zythos v1 (Actual).bsmx
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The post boil gravity doesn't line up with the preboil. This may indicate that the wort wasn't well mixed when you took your reading.

If I multiply the 1.050 by your yield plus the trub loss in your equipment, I get:

50*(4.75+1.25) = 300 gravity points

Using the 1.040 preboil gravity multiplied by volume, I get:

40*8.75 = 350 gravity points.

This indicates a measurement error, somewhere. I think it's easier to measure volume accurately, so that'll be our constant. This means that dividing the post boil gravity points by the preboil volume, I get a predicted 1.034.

The result is a reduction in mash efficiency from a predicted 88.4% to 77.1%. Your measured brewhouse efficiency was 61.6%. The measured number should be used in your equipment profile.

Overall, it appears that the equipment profile is assuming mash efficiency in place of Brewhouse Efficiency. According to your records, you're getting the predicted mash efficiency and even corrected, it's still very respectable. What's falling short is the yield into the fermenter, which is what Brewhouse Efficiency measures.
 
brewfun said:
The post boil gravity doesn't line up with the preboil. This may indicate that the wort wasn't well mixed when you took your reading.

If I multiply the 1.050 by your yield plus the trub loss in your equipment, I get:

50*(4.75+1.25) = 300 gravity points

Using the 1.040 preboil gravity multiplied by volume, I get:

40*8.75 = 350 gravity points.

This indicates a measurement error, somewhere. I think it's easier to measure volume accurately, so that'll be our constant. This means that dividing the post boil gravity points by the preboil volume, I get a predicted 1.034.

The result is a reduction in mash efficiency from a predicted 88.4% to 77.1%. Your measured brewhouse efficiency was 61.6%. The measured number should be used in your equipment profile.

Overall, it appears that the equipment profile is assuming mash efficiency in place of Brewhouse Efficiency. According to your records, you're getting the predicted mash efficiency and even corrected, it's still very respectable. What's falling short is the yield into the fermenter, which is what Brewhouse Efficiency measures.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for breaking that down! Few questions:

How do you go about making sure that your wort is well mixed to get an accurate reading? I usually stir the wort well prior to it coming to a boil to get my pre-boil gravity. Is the suspended material causing the inaccuracy? If so should I take a reading immediately after the hot break?

When you say you get a predicted 1.034, are referring to the pre-boil or post boil gravity?

How would I go about improving my brewhouse efficiency if my mash efficiency is already decent? I'm a little confused as to how one wouldn't directly correlate with the other.

Are there any settings that I should revisit in my equipment profile?

Thanks again.
 
rimondi12 said:
How do you go about making sure that your wort is well mixed to get an accurate reading? I usually stir the wort well prior to it coming to a boil to get my pre-boil gravity.
Click to expand...
Yup. That'd be the method.

When you say you get a predicted 1.034, are referring to the pre-boil or post boil gravity?
Click to expand...
Pre boil.

How would I go about improving my brewhouse efficiency if my mash efficiency is already decent? I'm a little confused as to how one wouldn't directly correlate with the other.
Click to expand...
Reducing the loss between the kettle and the fermenter is how. Your equipment profile shows 18.5% of of your wort is left behind. Wort that doesn't get to the fermenter can't become beer.

Are there any settings that I should revisit in my equipment profile?
Click to expand...
Your boiloff rate is pretty large. It doesn't have to be 14% per hour, if you're boiling 90 minutes. Maybe 10 to 14% total for the whole boil.

 
Great thanks. I will make a few adjustments on the next batch and hopefully improve my numbers.

What is the most effective way to increase wort collected? The drain spout on my kettle is located at about the 3/4 gallon mark. It is usually filled a bit past the bottom of the spout with break by the end of chilling/settling. I even tip the kettle back after a small whirlpool after cooling/settling to try to have the break accumulate at the back of the pot. I can't seem to recover more wort without a bunch of gunk entering the fermenter.
 
rimondi12 said:
What is the most effective way to increase wort collected?
Click to expand...

Whirlpool the wort for a few minutes to collect the trub to the kettle. Using Irish moss helps the trub pile stay together. Make sure you let it settle for 15 minutes or so. Let it stay right in the center.

Adding a downspout inside the kettle will increase your wort collection, without losing your syphon.

If it's a convex bottom (like a keg), then extend the downspout half to 2/3 of the way towards the bottom. I know a few brewers who use a hop screen or hop spyder in the kettle and it cuts way down on the trub.

Although you don't want a lot of hot break in the fermenter, a little isn't a problem.  As long as the vast majority is left behind, you're good.
 
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