Author Topic: batch sparge with mash out?  (Read 9214 times)

Offline grathan

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batch sparge with mash out?
« on: April 22, 2013, 05:48:21 AM »
Is there a mash profile for doing a mash out with batch sparging?


Say I do Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge

I want to raise the grain bed to 170, the only options I see are to add 168 water.

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2013, 12:21:09 PM »
You could take any of the batch sparge mash profiles, make a copy of them and edit them to add the mash out step.  Use an existing profile to get the temperature and rough amount of water to use for the mash out step.

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Offline grathan

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2013, 07:24:49 AM »
Would beersmith be able to figure the temperature for me?

Let's say I mashed 12 pounds of grain @149 and now want to add just the right amount of water at just the right temperature to get the grain bed to 168 before the first sparge.



Offline tom_hampton

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2013, 10:18:24 AM »
Not if you drain the mash-tun first.  If you treat your mashout as an infusion, then yes.  Just add another mash infusion step and set the desired temperature to 168. 

Honestly, the way I do it is this:

1.  Drain the mash-tun into the kettle.
2.  Turn on the fire in the kettle to raise the first runnings up to 180.
2.  Add sparge water to the MLT, at 180F.

This generally raises my mash to around 170F.


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Offline grathan

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2013, 12:42:42 PM »
ahh neat, thanks. It even throws an error message if the amount chosen requires a higher temperature than boiling. :D

Darn, you can't make custom mash profiles and save them can you?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 01:35:06 PM by grathan »

Offline tom_hampton

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2013, 01:11:49 PM »
Which is part of the reason that I do it the way that I do. 
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Offline grathan

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2013, 01:38:31 PM »
Hmm, another reason to build a herms. It sure takes an awful lot of water to raise the grain bed temperature.

Offline tom_hampton

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2013, 03:11:10 PM »
You're overthinking it for just mash-out.  For the purposes of halting conversion, my simple approach is plenty sufficient, and will be quite a bit faster than HERMS at the job.

If you want to do various rests (acid, protein, etc)...then sure, HERMS is a good solution.  But, just for mash-out?  Its way overkill. 

During the mash I heat my sparge water to 180F and transfer to my HLT. 

As I said above, just drain the mashtun directly into your kettle and turn on the fire.  it will be above 180 in a matter of just a few minutes. 

Refill the MLT with the 180F sparge water for your batch sparge.  Your grist will get close to 170.  Stir...drain into kettle.  Heat to boiling. 

Done.  Short and sweet. 

Another advantage of this approach?  It shortens the brewday by about an hour.  From getting out my pH meter to calibrate it, to pitching my starter into the fermenter....3.5 - 4 hours.  I made two back-2-back batches this way last weekend in just over 6 hours (everythign clean and put away).






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Offline grathan

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2013, 04:52:00 PM »
Your right, that would be simple. Though it does seem like a bit of effort each time. I still haven't weighed the benefits of a mash out and warmer sparge (my efficiency jumped by 10 points this last batch for other reasons, and I am not sure why stopping conversion would even be desirable in the first place). But if it were as simple as leaving the sparge water on the burner a couple extra minutes I would be more apt to try it. You must see some benefit perhaps or do you just do this step because literature suggests it should be so?


The other reasons for a herms for me would be better infusion temp stability. Currently I am 2*F off on most infusion mash strike temps. I don't know the benefit of 2*F yet, but I would also like a HLT (which could easily double as herms) with automatic temp controls( I picture setting a timer and walking out to the garage on brew day with my mash water already at temp).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 04:59:40 PM by grathan »

Offline tom_hampton

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2013, 12:03:15 PM »
Honestly, I don't worry much about the mash-out.  I have to heat my sparge water to something, and 180F is as good as anything.  It begins the process of halting conversion, but heating the runnings finishes the job faster than a mash-out step will do---without the risk of tannin extraction.  So, I don't worry about actually getting the grain bed above 168F.  As long as the grain bed gets HOT, the kettle will finish the job.

Stopping conversion is desirable because your mash profile has created a certain fermentability in your wort.  Ultimately, this controls the final gravity that your finished beer will reach (along with yeast selection).  If you go to the trouble of mashing at 157F, with the idea of creating a full-bodied beer...then you don't halt conversion...the enzymes will continue to convert those dextrins into maltose...ultimately drying out the beer below what you had intended. 

I do not have a herms or rims system.  I think about it every once in a while...but, I can control my FG using mash-temp alone to within 1.002 SG (0.25 Plato).  Generally, I hit my desired FG dead on.  I mash-in 2F above my target mash-temp.  I generally lose 4F during the full  hour.  So, the average mash-temp equals my target.  If I lose more than 4F (in winter, only), I'll pull a small decoction to bring it back up to my target. 

So, really I don't know what a herms or rims would actually do for my beer.  For the few beers that benefit from a multi-step mash, decoction does the job without THAT much trouble. 
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Offline dazed

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 07:23:28 PM »
If you go to the trouble of mashing at 157F, with the idea of creating a full-bodied beer...then you don't halt conversion...the enzymes will continue to convert those dextrins into maltose...ultimately drying out the beer below what you had intended. 



Only if it drops below the 157 would it dry it out ,Right?

Offline tom_hampton

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2013, 03:13:57 AM »
No. The enzymes will keep working even if you sstay at 157. Alpha amalase will continue to randomly break Starch and cmplex sugars into smaller sugars. This will slowly alter the fg.
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Offline brewfun

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2013, 03:39:26 AM »
No. The enzymes will keep working even if you stay at 157. Alpha amalase will continue to randomly break Starch and cmplex sugars into smaller sugars. This will slowly alter the fg.

It seems to me that by the time you expect to hit mashout temps there still is starch to convert, then something went wrong in the mash.

The statement that A. Amylase will create more fermentability is semi-true. It works on different bonds than B. Amylase, which are harder (but not impossible) for yeast to consume. The result is often more esters and fusels in that case, but not a significantly lower fg.
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Offline grathan

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2013, 10:36:30 AM »
I assume the same thing. It seems to be even more confusing trying to read into it some more.

The Alpha(higher mash temp) breaks down starch to smaller particles that the Beta can eat. So It would seem to make the driest beer possible, You would mash at mid range (154ish) so the Alpha and Beta both chow down. This is contrary to what is said about lower mash temps = drier beer because the low mash enzymes cannot break down the starch entirely.

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Offline tom_hampton

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Re: batch sparge with mash out?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2013, 01:18:19 PM »
Brewfun-

The point of the answer I gave is that without raising the temperature of the wort/mash a. Amylase WILL continue to work on whatever remains. Medium and long chains will be reduced to produce more maltose and maltotriose.

I have never experienced nor heard anyone else claim that A. Amylase will produce a wort that is more prone to fusels or esters. I question that claim because otherwise beers like the about (mashed at 157) would be high in fusels. I've made numerous beers at this temp, scottish ales, milk stouts, etc. None have had any detectable fusels. None of my references make this claim either.

Regardless, we are talking about a mash which has progressed at 157 from the beginning.  So, whatever fusel profile it will be prone to...is already true. Leaving the wort to sit and allow A. Amylase to continue to work is going to further reduce the long chains and cleave off further fermentable compounds until it is fully denatured.

The effect is minor, and at 157 much of the A amylase will have denatured at the end of an hour.  But, the same rule applies at lower temperatures, too.

R.I.P.:Belgian Blonde
On Tap: Apfelwein, Kolsch(v2), Pumpkin Ale, Belgian Specialty 
Aging/Storing: Coffee Porter, Chocolate Porter, Flanders Red, English Barlywine
Fermenting: Maggie's Altbier
Next Up: PtE(1.1), Belgian Dubbel?

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