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Hefeweizen with Acid Rest and Decoction - Questions

philm63

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OK, so I've done a few pretty successful all-grain brews with my new equipment and my numbers are looking good, so I think I'm ready to try something new; such as a Bavarian Hefeweizen complete with a Ferulic Acid rest and a single decoction. I've never tried this before and am looking for suggestions.

My plan thus far is to mash in at 111 F with about a 2 qt/pound water to grain ratio and let rest for about 20 minutes, then take a third of the thick mash and drop it into another pot and slowly bring that grain up to 150 F and let is sit there for about 30 minutes to convert, then bring it up to a boil and let it go (stirring constantly, of course) for about another 10 minutes or until just a hint of color develops - whichever comes first, then dump it back into my tun with the hope of hitting my sacc temp of 154 F.

If I hit my temp before all the hot grain goes in, I'll just add some cold water- conversely; if it all goes in and I'm still too cold, I'll add some boiling water. Let rest at 154 F for another 30 minutes then sparge as usual, albeit much more slowly so as to avoid a stuck sparge (almost 60% wheat malt).

90 minute boil, hops at 60 minutes, cool to 64 F, good healthy pitch, ferment at 64 - 65 F, looking for good balance between clove and banana and a not too sweet malty body. Target OG is 1.048, IBUs are just over 14, BU:GU is just under 300.

Does this make sense? Am I overlooking something? All comments are appreciated, of course.

<edit> ...or should I add boiling water to the remaining mash (after removing the decoction) to bring it up to sacc temp and let it convert while doing my decoction, and use the hot (decocted) mash for mash-out? I fear I may not be giving enough time for full conversion in my original effort.
 
philm63 said:
90 minute boil, hops at 60 minutes, cool to 64 F, good healthy pitch, ferment at 64 - 65 F, looking for good balance between clove and banana and a not too sweet malty body. Target OG is 1.048, IBUs are just over 14, BU:GU is just under 0.30. 

I like this part, especially the 1.048 OG.  I think I tend to go too high and it's never crisp enough. 

Only question is whether 30 mins at 150F is so long that most conversion will be done, or so much beta that the alpha will have little left to do.  Dunno.

Four weeks later, I'd love to hear if you thought it worth the effort. 
 
Philm63, I like your thoughts and hope you will do some brews in this (mash) area :)

I've done several (semi) decoctions and from my experience 30 min at 150F is rather short if you want a crispy Hefeweizen.
In your case I would extend both the 150F and 154F rest from 30min to 45min and probably the 154F rest even more longer (60min).
I experimented as well with the decoction volume ratio and found out that heating up a decoction volume of 30-40% of the total mash volume gave the best conversion result. 50/50 didn't work that well in my case.

MaltLicker said:
I like this part, especially the 1.048 OG.  I think I tend to go too high and it's never crisp enough. 
Only question is whether 30 min at 150F is so long that most conversion will be done, or so much beta that the alpha will have little left to do.  Dunno.

I agree with MaltLicker that aiming for a 1048 OG (as a max) could be a good idea. Using a good pitch with healthy yeast with high attenuation factor brings your FG to around 1010. Personally I am aiming for OG around 1044-1046 and FG around 1008.

Good luck ;)

Regards,
Slurk
 
What is the advantage to doing a decoction mash on a Hefeweizen.  I have done them for the occasional Octoberfest before but never on a hefe.  What are you looking to add to the beer?
 
@ Slurk -

Yeah, I started thinking about those sacc rest times and they looked a bit short to me also, thanks for the tips!

@ Humble -

There are a few reasons why I want to decoct this Hefe, but primarily because it is a technique I've not tried yet, and I'd like to get some experience with it. Also, some believe it has an effect on the flavor and mouthfeel that just adds that little bit of authenticity in a true Bavarian Hefeweizen. Some swear by it, and wouldn't do a German wheat beer without decocting.

I'm not looking for any color out of this decoction, but will use it as a step-mash experience - really just looking to increase my understanding of traditional brewing techniques and expand my horizons a bit, and possibly make a good example of the style in the process.
 
My friend did mostly hybrids (alt, kolsch, cal common) for a long time, and started decocting some and I swore I could taste the difference.  Just seemed rounder, fuller in the mouth and a touch more malt complexity.  And in the fall, I know I can pick out decocted German Marzen compared to US-made where they rely on caramel malts.  Malty versus sweetness.
 
hmmm, maybe I will do a decoction on my next hefe.  Hefeweizen is far and away my favorite beer and I have a recipe that is perfected for just the way I like them.  I swore never to mess with it again... but maybe lol.  Like I said before I have only done decoctions on my Octoberfest/Marzen beers.
 
After more research and a few of Kai's videos, I started thinking about multi-step mashes to hit low and high sacc rests, and a protein rest to account for the beta-glucans, double and even triple decoctions, and it all started blowing up in my face so I backed up a bit and came up with the following mash schedule.

Mash in at 111 F with a 1 qt/Lb water to grain ratio, let rest for 15 minutes.
Pull 1/3 of the thick mash and heat to 158 F and rest for 20 minutes, then bring to a boil for 10 minutes.
After pulling the decoction, add boiling water to the remaining mash for a temp of 150 F and let rest for an hour.
Add finished decoction back to mash for a target of 168 F (adjust with hot or cold water as necessary) for mash-out.

The first step is the ferulic acid rest, and thick to account for the additional water necessary to bring it to my sacc rest. For the decoction; 20 minutes at 158 F should give me pretty complete conversion before bringing the decoction to a boil. The time it takes to heat, rest, and boil the decoction will be just about long enough for the remaining mash to complete conversion as it'll have been resting at 150 F since right after pulling the decoction.

I'm gonna give this a go next weekend provided I can find WLP300 at the LHBS - I'll report back on the results (unless it kills me...)
 
@Philm63
Give it a try! If you have some space left in your logistics/timing I would raise the time of the 20min - 158F rest. Please report back and give us a status about the prices/method, choices you made and other observations. Good luck next weekend :)

@Maltlicker
MaltLicker said:
I could taste the difference.  Just seemed rounder, fuller in the mouth and a touch more malt complexity. Malty versus sweetness.

Exactly, very good description ;) I received the same feedback, and I can taste the difference as well!

R, Slurk
 
Ok, I did it! It's bubbling away in the ferm-fridge; my first Hefe/acid-rest/decoction/step-mash/pure O2 for the pitch/cold-fermentation.

The decoction, you say? Well, that part went without a hitch. It was the volumes/temps that proved the most challenging. First, my mash-in was supposed to land right at 111 F for the ferulic acid rest. All of my other mash-ins hit their numbers pretty much every time - why was this one 9 F too hot?! I had to dump a bunch of ice-water in the tun to bring it down.

Smaller grain bill, slightly warmer grain temperature than the number I had in BS (by +2 F), strike water was +2 F higher than BS had it (I normally do this, but I also normally have WAY more grain...), pre-heated the tun with 200 F water (plastic 10-gal cooler - I always do this...), and the mash-in was 111 F, not the usual 154-ish as in a single-infusion. Too much residual heat in the system - I totally missed this one; will calculate differently next time I mash-in at acid-rest temps. - Lesson learned.

I used the decoction to step the mash up from the acid rest to what I thought was going to be 150 F. Didn't happen! Apparently I didn't pull enough decoction to hit the next step. It looked short in the kettle even after I added 2 quarts of water - should've gone with my gut and pulled more. Will pull more next time. - Another lesson learned.

I found out it is VERY difficult to pull the temperatures UP in the mash using a cooler, but very easy to pull them down. I ended up using about 2 gallons of boiling water above what I anticipated during the entire mashing process and STILL barely hit my sacc temp (was shooting for 150, settled for 148). I'll mash-in with less water next time. - And yet another lesson learned.

The actual decoction process was awesome - worked exactly as planned. I'll likely do this again. It only added about an extra 90 minutes to my brew day - well worth it if I get a good hefe out of it. Might try it on some other styles, too. Probably knock it down to an hour if I can figure out how to step-mash in a cooler...

Other than that, I hit all of my post-mash targets, every one of them, pretty much spot on! Got good efficiency with that decoction. Even stuck a mash! Not a problem, though, happened right near the end of the first runnings. I just dumped the next sparge volume in, stirred it up, let it rest 5 minutes, recirculated until clear, and ran it to my kettle until I hit my volume target. Pre-boil SG was right on the money and the runnings were down to SG 1.016 at pH 5.5. I'm stoked!
 
@Philm63
Steep learning curve!
Great that you are still enthousiastic about your new approach and would like to experiment with some other styles.

R, Slurk
 
I actually gave it a shot as well I just forgot to come to this thread and post.  For me there was no discernible difference.  I shared it with all my Friday night regulars.  A couple said they could tell something was different, a couple said they couldn't.  In the end I didn't find the added work of the decoction added enough to the brew to warrant it.  So back to my regular technique and recipe and nothing lost by trying.  :)
 
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