Decoction -v- Grain in the Boil

So I had a wild hair today and was thinking about getting more malty "tasting" beer.  One of my favorite style is Oktoberfest and I've never been able to get it as "malty" as in commercial brews.  To be up front, I have never done a decoction mash although the idea has intrigued me for some time.  My question is this: Would it be possible to take some of the grain from my mash, put it into a hop bag and add it to my boil and achieve the same Maillard reaction as is accomplished in a decoction mash?  Theoretically it seems to make sense.

Ever tried melanoidin malt?

I use Melanoiden Malt in almost all of my amber to darker beer styles.  It does increase malty flavor, but not to the level I see in, for example, Sam Adams Oktoberfest.

Decoction is usually done with a thick 1/3 of the mash, and you must constantly stir it to prevent scorching and thus burnt flavors.  It's more like cooking than boiling.

I *think* the thick 1/3 procedure is meant to break down the desired elements from the grain without extracting astringency.  The proportions would seem reversed in what you describe............a very watery boiling of the grains, that may lead to extraction of astringent notes.  And less (or none) of that cooking aspect that creates the desired flavors.

By the time you get to the level of flavor you're looking for, boiling grains in the kettle will also give you a significant amount of tannin.

The malty flavor you're looking for is related to Munich Malt. You didn't mention the percentage you're thinking. A fairly classic percentage in homebrewing is 33% each of Pilsner, Vienna and 6 lov Munich. The last bit would be some Carafe for color.

Within Munich malts, the term "light" and "dark" is deceptive.
Weyermann Light 6L
Weyermann Dark 10L
Gambrinus Light 10 L
Gambrinus Dark 30 L
Briess makes four Munich Malts. 10 lov Munich; 10 Lov Bonlander Munich (more aromatic); 20 Lov Munich and 20 lov Aromatic Munich.

The Weyermann light Munich has enough diastatic potential to convert itself and a little bit more. Vienna Malts generally do, as well. So, you might think of replacing the Pilsner portion of the grist I suggested with Weyermann Dark Munich or Briess Bonlander.

I'm not a big fan of using much Melanoidin malt. It has a raisin and stewed prune profile, to my palate. Use too much and it moves quickly into Soy Sauce flavors. It just goes from ok to doom a bit too easily, for me.

The most important part of the Oktoberfest flavor profile is the attenuation to get the "malty" away from the "sweet." A generous pitch of yeast along with lots of oxygen will help drive a great 50 F fermentation. Then lagering for four weeks really makes the flavor mature. Consider getting lager yeast from a local brewery of pub, the day before you brew.

brewfun said:

The most important part of the Oktoberfest flavor profile is the attenuation to get the "malty" away from the "sweet." A generous pitch of yeast along with lots of oxygen will help drive a great 50 F fermentation. Then lagering for four weeks really makes the flavor mature. Consider getting lager yeast from a local brewery of pub, the day before you brew.

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That's a great recap of how to do it:  attenuation and mash temp.  Two or three packs of dry lager yeast is another option. 

The below is my plan for a near-future brew.  77% of those lightly kilned malts brewfun mentioned. 





Style: Oktoberfest/Märzen
Recipe: 3B Marzen TYPE: All Grain
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 10.7 SRM SRM RANGE: 7.0-14.0 SRM
IBU: 25.7 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 20.0-28.0 IBUs
RGR: 28.4 IBUs Rager
OG: 1.057 SG OG RANGE: 1.050-1.057 SG
FG: 1.014 SG FG RANGE: 1.012-1.016 SG
BU:GU: 0.454 Calories: 189.3 kcal/12oz Est ABV: 5.6 %
EE%: 72.00 % Batch: 5.25 gal      Boil: 7.44 gal BT: 90 Mins


Amt                  Name                                    Type          #        %/IBU       
4 lbs 8.0 oz          Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM)          Grain        1        40.9 %       
4 lbs                Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM)        Grain        2        36.4 %       
1 lbs                Caramunich II (Weyermann) (46.0 SRM)    Grain        3        9.1 %       
1 lbs                Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM)            Grain        4        9.1 %       
8.0 oz                Melanoidin (Weyermann) (28.0 SRM)        Grain        5        4.5 %       

You will be at risk of unwanted tannins if you just boil the grain. The idea of decoction is an old one, but when you pull the first (or only) decoction, it is supposed to be very thick. This way you leave many of the enzymes responsible for starch conversion behind in the mash. The magic occurs as you boil the thick portion of the grain.

I believe you're pursuing the "Philosophers' Stone", the magical substance that transforms base metals into gold. Intellectuals (and tinkerers) pursued it for a thousand years and failed to find it. In the process they learned a lot that laid the groundwork for modern chemistry.

In other words, I doubt your system will work, but you'll learn something the process. After all, we learn from our mistakes - on second thought, with all the mistakes I've made I'm still not smart. Your mileage may vary. Let us know how it works.

Interesting ideas and thanks to all. The more I thought about it the tannin extraction wouldn't be great.  But i really do want to try a decoction as it sounds fun to try.

After many delays, I'm finally going to try my first decoction next weekend, I'll be happy to post my process including pitfalls, solutions, stats, etc.

philm63 said:

I'll be happy to post my process including pitfalls, solutions, stats, etc.

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That would be great.  From all I've read, including here, scorching seems to be one of the biggest issues and constant stirring can help prevent this.  I look forward to trying one myself!