Irish Red Ale need help

I'm new to brewing, I've finished my first Red Ale and a Pale Ale and both were good, but lacked something on the finish.  The recipe is from a kit 145 form More Beer. 
1 lb Crystal 120L
8 oz Abbey8 oz Caramunich

Well my first post seems to have had problems getting out, so here it is again.

I'm new to brewing, I've finished my first Irish Red Ale and a Pale Ale and both were good, but lacked something on the finish.  The recipe is from Kit 145 from More Beer.  I told the folks at More Beer about my desire to increase the maltiness in the next batch and they suggested 1 lb of DME.

Irish Red, Mark2
1 lb Crystal 120L
8 oz Abbey8 oz Caramunich
2 oz Black Roasted
2 oz Special B
7 lb Ultralight Malt Extract
1 lb DME *
*Suggested by More Beer
Hops
1.5 oz Northern Brewer in boil
.5 oz Willamett Last minute of boil
OG 1.056
FG 1.014

I added the DME and brewed as I had before.  Fermentation began normally, but was very active, even violent.  I tasted the wert as I transferred it to the clarification carboy and it still didn't have the malty breadiness I am looking for.  I guess the DME just fermented out and made more alcohol.  Do I need something else, perhaps maltose to give me some unfermentable sugars or a yeast with a lower attenuation.
What do you think?
Thanks
MB

It sounds like you know more about it than the guy selling the stuff.



What yeast did you use? try s04 or wlp002 (less attenuating like you said).


Which malt extract did you use? perhaps try the maris otter brand. Or even mix in a little munich syrup.


Are you partial mashing yet? this chart says bisuit malt doesn't need to be mashed:
http://www.beersmith.com/Grains/Grains/GrainList.htm

But I am not familiar with steeping, only mashing. That grain would add some maltiness (breadiness), as well as munich malt.

You might consider upgrading to all grain.  can't beat the power of control.

mjbell said:

1 lb Crystal 120L
8 oz Abbey
8 oz Caramunich
2 oz Black Roasted
2 oz Special B

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I assume you're steeping these grains.  If you have capacity for more grains, try steeping 1-2# of Light Munich malt.  Keep the temp at 156F for 30 minutes. 

Or, if you have a separate pot or cooler, you can simply steep the grains above, and do the Munich separately as a partial mash. 

The Munich mashed at 156-158F will give a bready flavor, and won't ferment well due to the high mash temp. 

mjbell said:

good, but lacked something on the finish. 

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You really need to describe this better. Your FG is spot on for an Irish Red. How long has it been bottle conditioning? You just might have to move it to a warmer location for a while to finish carbonating and then let it age at a cooler temp. Make sure you pour slowly to leave the sediment in the bottle. There is a lot of flavor in this grain bill, so I would just wait it out.

Thanks all for your replies, I'm going to stick to the Irish Red and try some of your suggestions.  I thought that getting it right on one recipe is better branching out and getting it wrong on a lot of recipes, besides I like Red.  I haven't started either all-grain or partial-mash yet, I thought I'd figure out the vagaries of extract brewing before moving on. 
The Munich Lite seems like a good starting point, how does it differ from Munich Syrup. Interesting to read your suggested steeping temperature.  The instructions in the kit suggest 170 degrees for 30 minutes.  I have read and heard that 150 degrees was the proper temperature, I'll go with your suggestion.  I'll also change to WLP002, I used the suggested WLP004 and pitched 2 viles, all went well, but with the extra DME there was more action in the fermentation carboy than in the boil, the air-lock sounded more like a steam whistle than the blurp, blurp, blurp I'd had before.
I transferred to a clarification carboy last week and will bottle this weekend, then it's onto Irish Red Mark3, with Munich Lite.
Wish me luck.
See ya
MB
 
 

What was your fermentation temperature?  If you ferment at too high of a temperature, it can go crazy on you.  It will also produce off flavors too, if it's fermented at too high of a temperature.  Are the ambient temperatures higher now than they were with your earlier fermentations?  I try to keep most of my ale fermentations below 70F.

mjbell said:

The instructions in the kit suggest 170 degrees for 30 minutes.  I have read and heard that 150 degrees was the proper temperature,

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With deeply roasted or crystal grains, the malt is "dead" meaning no enzymes, meaning no possible conversion of starch to sugar.  That conversion is already done by the maltster and the kilning schedule.  So the brewer need only steep those grains to get the flavor and color out.  So below 170F is decent, generic advice. 

150F is also decent, generic advice since you're just steeping.  With partial mash, however, you're now mashing yourself, and converting the remaining grain starches in "live" malts to sugars, and that requires more precise temperatures, that you get to pick in order to shape the "maltiness" profile you want.  If you want a bigger, rounder mouthfeel, i.e., more body, then mashing 156 to 158F creates more sugars that don't ferment out completely, leaving more body.  148 to 150F creates simpler sugars that the yeast can fully eat, leaving a drier finish and less body. 

This is the "control" that all-grain brewers speak about: they can shape the entire sugar profile, whereas partial mash shapes only a portion.  And pure extract controls none; you're stuck with whatever Briess or Munton's did weeks ago at the extract plant. 

Partial mash makes virtually any beer style possible with little more equipment than basic extract brewing, and will introduce you to the brewing process of maintaining that more precise temperature for 30 to 60 minutes.  Once you have that licked, you buy bigger pots and go all-grain for total control.  Or stick with partial and have more free time on weekends. 

I made three Irish Reds a couple of years ago and dialed in my recipe to JUST where I want it.  I agree with the above, a partial mash, etc. but I also think an Irish Ale yeast might help some.  It has a little less attenuation and thus leaves the beer slightly sweeter.  I also like using some melanoiden Malt which adds a little depth in my opinion.

Maltlicker:  I think I answered my own question after I logged out, by reading the instructions of Extract and Full Grain Brewing.  Partial mash requires the mashing of part of the grain with the addition of extract.  That's the reason for the temperature difference.  Thanks for the explanation it confirms my thoughts.
Scott:  My temp might have been a bit high, it was one of those hot weeks in San Francisco, I live about 25 miles NE where it's even hotter(80+).  I have rigged up a Wort Cooler using a cheap fountain pump from Harbor Freight ($10) to circulate ice water through the cooler after I reach 100 degrees with city water. The ice water is about 40 degrees and brings the Wort down to 65 degrees pretty quick.  But in the hot afternoon the temp could have spiked.  Bottling this weekend and I'll take a preview of the flavor. 
Mtnmangh:  How do you pronounce that?  Ya, I'll be on my third Red and am hoping to get close before I go to partial or all grain.  I'm going to change to White Labs WLP002 which has lower Attenuation and higher Flocculation both of which can't hurt.
Again thanks for the help, I'll keep you informed.
MB

mjbell said:

Partial mash requires the mashing of part of the grain with the addition of extract.  That's the reason for the temperature difference. 

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Not exactly sure I follow your last comment, but most brewers (that I know, anyway) do not partial mash with the DME/extract in the water.  The reason being when you lift out the grain bag, you'd be taking out extract juice with it.    Most people partial mash in hot water, get what wort they can out of the grain bag, and then add DME and take it to boil.  While that is going on, you can prop the grain bag on something over a bowl and continue to collect drippings, and add that small amount to the boil later. 

Add a pound of Melanoiden.