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New, soon to be brewer - basic questions

top_jimmy44

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OK, so I've been doing some reading (on Chapter 12 of How to Brew) and am compiling a list of the equipment I will need to buy to get started.  I've been collecting used bottles from friends, and myself, and have about 3 cases of bottles now...good start I guess. 

I am looking to jump straight into all-grain brewing, and plan on purchasing a 15 gallon brew pot.  Also believe I will buy two 10 gallon igloo coolers for Mash tun and HLT.

From what I have read, and please tell me if I am wrong, but I will heat water in the brew pot, mix it with the grain in the mash tun.  While the mash is resting, I'll heat more water in the brew pot and add that to the HLT for sparging.  Once the sparge is complete and I have my wort ready for the boil, I'll drain back into the brew pot for the boil.  After the boil, I will need to cool quickly with a coil to get down to temp, and once ready, I will drain it into the fermentor(s). 

That's where my question comes in.  I'll need to pitch the yeast into fermentor, but will I create two batches of yeast, one for each fermentor?  I'm thinking I am going to buy two 6 gallon glass carboys, but haven't really decided on that yet.  Or will I need three carboys so I can do primary/secondary ferment?

Also, once the ferment is finished and I'm ready for bottling, do I need a bottling bucket or can I bottle straight from the carboy?

I guess to sum it up, I'm trying to do this right, spend the least amount of money possible...

I am figuring I will need to get a propane burner to heat the water, but if I am going to need two burners for some reason, I'd like to figure that out now.  And if it would be best if I had two pots to boil water, that would be nice to know too. 

Any help would be great here.  I found a local brewing group that I plan on meeting up with prior to me buying everything to get started, but thought I would run my thoughts by everyone here, and try to get my mind thinking in the right direction. 

For instance, I was shopping around for a 15 gallon brewpot, stainless steel, and most were around $300.  I found a 15 gal stainless steel stock pot for $133 at one online retailer, which is about $170 less than buying a premade brew pot with thermometer and valve, but would it be cheaper for me to buy the pot and the conversion parts, have someone drill holes for me and add the valve and thermometer myself?

Hope this isn't too much to ask, but I'm sort of anal about all of this.  I just want to do it right, that's all.  Heck, I've already started an excel spreadsheet listing all of the items I need to buy, from where, with cost. 

Thanks.
Jim
 
The shape of the pot matters. I thought I'd save some money by buying a less expensive one that's shaped like a D-cell battery. Big mistake.  Flames are wasted around the bottom and my boil-off rate could be a lot better.

You want as much surface area as possible both for the flames on the bottom and for evaporation on top. Short and squat is where it's at. 

Just trying to save you from making the same mistake I made.
 
From what you are writing, it sounds like you are making a mountain out of a mole hill...
Simplicity is the rule of the day when you get started. Initially I would suggest a simple process of
mash, sparge and boil.
Things I have learned over the years are that you never want to ferment in plastic and always use a secondary.
Brew what sounds good and learn from mistakes. Don't try to copy, it never turns out the way you hope...
Make sure and use bottles without screw threads, and that have long enough collars to work with a capper.
MOST IMPORTANT!!!! HAVE FUN AND DON'T GIVE UP!
 
BILLY BREW said:
From what you are writing, it sounds like you are making a mountain out of a mole hill...
Simplicity is the rule of the day when you get started. Initially I would suggest a simple process of
mash, sparge and boil.
Things I have learned over the years are that you never want to ferment in plastic and always use a secondary.
Brew what sounds good and learn from mistakes. Don't try to copy, it never turns out the way you hope...
Make sure and use bottles without screw threads, and that have long enough collars to work with a capper.
MOST IMPORTANT!!!! HAVE FUN AND DON'T GIVE UP!

Billy has captured the essence of home brewing: Keep it simple. Have fun. Never give up.

I don't necessarily agree with his statements about plastic or secondaries. I like plastic buckets; they're cheap, they don't break like glass carboys and you can install a valve at the bottom to easily pull samples and measure gravity to see if fermentation is complete. Using a secondary is a matter of personal preference, and it seems everyone has a different preference for a different reason. You can read plenty of good reasons for doing or not doing a secondary on this and other forums.

Read dennybrew.com for ideas on equipment. Lots of brewers have gone to Denny's system after trying more elaborate (and more expensive) systems.
 
Some things that I read about what you want to do, I've learned aren't absolutely necessary.  I also read something in your original post that makes me think that you're going to get 10 gallon batches out of your 10 gallon Mash Tun (i.e. the pitching of yeast into two fermentors).

When you mash in your 10 gallon Mash Tun, you'll only be getting about 5.5 gallons of wort going into your fermentor.  It is possible to do a 10 gallon batch in a 10 gallon Mash Tun, but only lower gravity session beers.  Even at that, you'll have your Mash Tun full with grain and water to the brim.

You really don't need a HLT, unless you plan on fly sparging.  With batch sparging, you can go from the boil pot, into the mash lauter tun.  I tried using a second cooler and a HLT and found it wasn't necessary for batch sparging.  I use a 12 gallon cooler for a Mash Tun.  I converted my HLT into a second Mash Tun.  This allows me to now do 5, 10, 15 or even 20 gallon batches.  The 20 gallon batches would be sessionable beers though.

 
I agree with Scott, you don't need to have a HLT.  I've never used one.  BUT...you will need something to put your sparge water into.  I personally use my boil pot from the extract days.  I have the blessing of working in an Injection molding factory with a tool and die shop, so I used one of the giant drills at work to tap my little pot with a quarter turn valve.  My small pot is a 5 gallon pot, which is perfect for sparging 5 gallon batches.  If you are doing 10 gallon batches it would probably be cheaper to get another cooler than another boil pot, though the guys hit the nail on the head about only being able to do low gravity brews with that setup.
 
If you don't have a second pot yet that you can use for sparge water, a good option is to get a turkey fryer set up.  They can usually be found reasonably priced.  My wife just mentioned one at our local Walmart for $49.  You get the 30 quart boil pot, lid, basket and a burner.  Set aside the basket and lid and you have a sparge water heating system.  To get the sparge water from the pot to the mash tun, I just use a plastic iced tea pitcher, until it's light enough to lift with oven mitts to protect my hands.

At the end of the mash it's necessary to raise the mash up to 168F.  There are two basic reasons for doing this.  One is to deactivate the enzymes.  The other is the hotter temperature will make the sugary wort thinner, allowing you to pull the sugar out of the grain bed easier.  The two most common ways of raising the mash to 168F are:

1.  Sparge with really hot water!
Heating your sparge water to high temperatures (190F+) and adding it to your mash.  I've found this to be difficult.  On large grain bills, even boiling water isn't hot enough to get the mash up to 168F.

2.  Single Decoction Mash Out
This involves lautering and then draining part of your mash, before sparging, boiling what you drained and then putting it back into the mash at boiling temperatures.  I just did this yesterday for the first time.  I lautered and drained about a third of my sugary wort out, brought it to boiling and then added it back in.  This raised my mash temp to about 159F.  I lautered and drained half of the sugary wort out again, brought it to a boil and then added it back in and hit 169F.  I stirred it, closed the lid, and waited 15 minutes.  Then I lautered and slowly drained the Mash Tun. 

I then put half of my sparge water into the mash tun at 170F, stirred it and let it sit for 15 minutes.  Lautered and drained that slowly.  I then put the second half of my sparge water in at 170F, stirred and let it sit for 15 minutes.  Lautered and drained it slowly again, to collect my boil volume.  My mash efficiency was 85%.

The advantages and disadvantages of the two ways are:
1. No mash out with high temp sparging, is simple and quick.  You can still achieve 80% mash efficiencies with it.

2. Single Decoction Mash Out with 170F batch sparging, isn't as quick as No Mash Out, but it doesn't take all that long to bring that small amount of wort up to boil. 

3. You will get some carmelization from the Single Decoction Mash Out.  Depending on the recipe or style, this could be an advantage or a disadvantage.  Most of the beers that I brew are better with a little extra carmelization, so I like it.

4. Single Decoction Mash out has raised my mash efficiency about 5%.  You either overshoot your gravities a little, not always a bad thing.  Or you can adjust your grain bill down a little bit to account for the higher efficiencies.
 
Thanks for the advice everyone, but of course, it always leads to more questions.  So I guess my assumption was that if I had a 10 gallon mash tun, it would be big enough for me to brew 10 gallon batches of beer just by increasing the amount of grain and sparging with more hot water.  Assuming I am wrong, unless I'm doing a lower gravity beer, as mentioned. 

My thought was that if I were going to do this, I'd want to try to brew as much as possible in one batch. 

As I said though, I am still new to all of this and I am still not sure what a lower gravity beer would be.  One beer I have recently become very fond of is Yards Brawler.  I could drink that every day if I had to :).

Aside from that, being a Pennsylvania boy, I am very fond of Yuengling Lager.  I understand lagering does take a bit more to do, and that may come later, but I'd just be happy if I got through my first run with some good tasting beer that didn't spoil and I didn't mess up somehow. 

I have a basement in my house with a root cellar and I have a thermometer/humidity gauge in there and have been keeping an eye on the temps down there.  It seems to stay at a steady 62-63 degrees. 

Knowing that, do I try to match the yeast with the temps I will be fermenting at?  Would that make sense?  Or am I going to be limited to brewing a certain type of beer in those temps?

Thanks.
jim
 
Your 10 gallon mash tun should allow you to make fairly high ABV beers.  Maybe up to the 9% range.  You might be able to reached starting gravities of about 1.085 with it.  This is for a 5 gallon batch.  The reason that you can't just run more water through the mash tun to make this a 10 gallon batch of beer, is because by the time you've collected about 7 gallons of wort from your grains, the amount of sugars left available in the grains is miniscule.  If you just keep sparging you'll get very little sugar out of the spent grains.  You can keep sparging if you like and pull out about 12.5 gallons of wort, but the gravity will be very diluted.  You'll be making a much lower gravity beer (maybe about 1.050 at most), with the same grain bill, as the 5 gallon batch of 1.085 beer.

So, to answer your questions.  Yes, you can make a 10 gallon batch of beer from your 10 gallon mash tun, but it will be difficult and you will be limited in the types of beer you can make a 10 gallon batch of.

I've never used a 10 gallon mash tun.  I started with a 12 gallon mash tun and when I upgraded, it was by adding a 2nd 12 gallon mash tun.

Now, for your yeast questions.

There are literally dozens of yeast strains available to you.  Some will ferment best at the 62-62F root cellar temperatures.  However, you're not limited to that.  You can ferment at higher temperatures in your kitchen, bathroom, living room, etc.  Most of the beers that I make are ales that ferment best at 66-68F.  You can also use cooling methods to drop your fermentation temperatures.  One of the simplest methods to drop fermentation temperatures below the ambient temperature of a room is by putting your fermentor in a shallow container of cold water.  Drape a damp towel around your fermentor with the bottom hainging in the water.  Then put a fan facing it and blow the air at the fermentor.  The moving air will dry out the towel taking heat away with it.  The fact that the towel is draped down into the water in the pan will cause the towel to continually wick moisture up into the towel and keep it damp.  You can lower your temperatures 4-6F this way.

I'd like to point out that fermentation temperatures are one of the most important things about making great tasting beer!  I can't emphasize this enough.  In making beer, sanitation is #1.  Fermentation temperatures is close behind sanitation.  Bad sanitation, or too high of a fermentation temperature can ruin a promising beer.  Poor sanitation can make it undrinkable.  Poor fermentation temperature won't make it undrinkable, but might cause fusel alcohols that will leave you with headaches the next day.

Give your new wort plenty of oxygen, before you pitch your yeast.  Oxygen is only good for beer right before you pitch your yeast.  Before and after that, it is always bad.  Then keep your fermentation temperatures where they need to be and you'll make great beer.
 
Thanks Scott.  I guess what I was thinking was that, for a 5 gallon batch, I'd use X amount of grain, and for a 10 gallon batch, I'd use 2X amount of grain and get double the fermentable sugars out of it.  I'm assuming now that is wrong. 

I'm wondering now if I wouldn't be better off just getting set up to brew 5 gallon batches and just brew two batches instead of one 10 gallon batch.  Would that make more sense? 
 
I think one reason why there is so much focus on five gallon batches is that five gallons is a manageable weight for one person. Once you get into ten gallons or more you pretty much need some help in the form of friends or pumps. 

You might want to look at a beer sculpture. http://morebeer.com/category/morebeer-brewsculptures.html?gclid=CNzW8I-B3boCFZMDOgod1EYA6w

As far as fermentation vessels go, if you're going to go with ten gallons you might as well get a conical.  http://www.homebrewing.org/product.asp?itemid=1020&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ProductAds&gclid=CPiA2PWA3boCFWrNOgodpEoAgA

Go big or go home, right?
 
I started simple, added a lot of stuff ove rthe years then went back to simple again.  Folks always told me to plan for 10 gallon batches when I started so I was not having to buy bigger pots later.  I started with two converted 15g kegs and a 48qt coleman cooler with a manifold I build form instruction in How To Brew.  I bought a dual burner  stand from Home Depot.    My startup costs were Two converted kegs $75, free cooler, $15 in copper, $110 for the double burner, $45 for 6g glass three carboys, $50 in misc stuff like connectors, tubing, etc.  then another $30 in cleaning and sanitizing chemicals and $50 for a copper coil immersion chiller.  Not cheap but I did it over a few months.  Over the next few years, I spent plenty more.

I brewed 3 10 gallon batch and more than 50 5 gallon batches.  Cooling 10 gallons is  a lot harder tan 5.  I was never sure I would want 10 gallons of the same beer.  Keeping two carboy temp controlled is a pain. 

So, now after all these years and all this equipment, I either gave away or sole cheaply to new brewers all my big pots and converted kegs.    I use a 8 gallon stainless kettle with a weldless valve and thermometer.  I have an 8 gallon aluminum pot for my hot liquor tank and the same cooler/mash tun I always had.  I use a 2 QT pitcher to transfer my hot water to my mash tun for mashing then later for batch sparging.  I still use the dual burner camp stove.    The kettle was premade and was $90 on Amazon, the pot was $25 on Amazon. 

I did upgrade to a pump and therminator plate chiller and I use that for chilling still.  One day I will put a weldless valve in the aluminum port and pump hot liquor from there to the mash tun but for now, manual is easy enough and east to cound the number of quarts transferred.



 
top_jimmy44 said:
Thanks Scott.  I guess what I was thinking was that, for a 5 gallon batch, I'd use X amount of grain, and for a 10 gallon batch, I'd use 2X amount of grain and get double the fermentable sugars out of it.  I'm assuming now that is wrong. 

I'm wondering now if I wouldn't be better off just getting set up to brew 5 gallon batches and just brew two batches instead of one 10 gallon batch.  Would that make more sense?

The statement that you can double your grain bill from 5 gallon to 10 gallon batches is accurate for the most part.  However, the 10 gallon mash tun isn't large enough to handle anything but the lowest ABV beers.  What you'll find is that your grain bill for 10 gallon batches for most of your beers, plus the 1.25 quarts of water per lb of grain, will be more than your mash tun can hold.  I have a 12 gallon mash tun, and I can only do 1.050 SG or smaller beers in a 10 gallon batch in it.  The space the grains and water take up will overflow your 10 gallon mash tun.

Take your second cooler and put the same mash tun system in it as the first one that you're converting and you'll be able to do 5, 10 and 15 gallon batches easy.  20 gallon batches in those two mash tuns would be limited to 1.050 gravity or smaller beers.

Does that help?
 
So what you are saying Scott is instead of having one Mash tun Igloo cooler and one HLT igloo cooler, just turn both of them into mash tuns, heat the water in a big pot and mash in both at the same time, then drain into the brew pot for the boil, hopefully getting the 11-12 gallons for the boil.  Then, I'd still be required to ferment in two carboys, unless I could find a larger container to use as a fermentor.  Any thoughts on a large container to do the ferment?

Let me ask this though...what if I were to get a 70 qt rectangular cooler for the mash tun.  Could that work for 10 gallon batches or would I still run into the same issues?  I have read that round is better than rectangular though because of heat loss i the corners.

Thanks.
Jim
 
top_jimmy44 said:
So what you are saying Scott is instead of having one Mash tun Igloo cooler and one HLT igloo cooler, just turn both of them into mash tuns, heat the water in a big pot and mash in both at the same time, then drain into the brew pot for the boil, hopefully getting the 11-12 gallons for the boil.  Then, I'd still be required to ferment in two carboys, unless I could find a larger container to use as a fermentor.  Any thoughts on a large container to do the ferment?

That's exactly what I'm saying.  As far as fermentors go, I like the 8 gallon plastic bucket fermentors made by Brewcraft for 5 gallon batches.  I don't always secondary ferment and will leave them in the 8 gallon plastic fermentor for however long it takes to be ready for bottling or kegging.  With the oversized fermentor, you don't have to worry about it gushing out through the airlock.  If you have glass carboys, even the larger 6.5 gallon ones, you might have to hook up a blow off tube.  I don't like using blow off tubes, because you lose beer through the blow off tube and have less product in the end.

I also don't ferment a 10 gallon batch in a large fermentor, because it's more difficult to handle.  I prefer to break it down into 5 gallon fermentors.  The buckets are stackable, inside of one another, so having 5 or 6 of them takes up no extra space.  I have 4 glass carboys too.  I use them for when I need to secondary or when I'm making wine or mead.  I still primary wine and mead in the buckets, but then rack to the glass for extended conditioning.  There are times when I'll rack to a secondary just to have a bucket available for a newly brewed beer that needs to primary.

top_jimmy44 said:
Let me ask this though...what if I were to get a 70 qt rectangular cooler for the mash tun.  Could that work for 10 gallon batches or would I still run into the same issues?  I have read that round is better than rectangular though because of heat loss i the corners.

If you already have two 10 gallon coolers that you can convert to mash tuns, why spend the money on a 70 quart cooler?  The 70 quart cooler will work for most 10 gallon batches.  It's still short 26 quarts of the two 12 gallon cooler system.  With the two 12 gallon cooler system, you'll have the equivalent of a 96 quart system.  You'll have the flexibility of doing 5, 10, 15 and 20 gallon batches.  I've never used the 70 quart cooler as a mash tun, but my coleman coolers are rectangular also, and I held mash temp this weekend quite well.  I mashed both coolers in for a Belgian Strong Ale.  My mash temp was 152F.  After 90 minutes, one was at 151F and the other was at 150F.  I then sparged down through both of them and hit 1.089 Starting Gravity.  My target was 1.088.  My efficiency was about 82% I think.

Will the 70 quart work for 10 gallon batches?  Absolutely!

but....

I say, why spend more money on the 70 quart cooler, if you already have two 40 quart coolers?

 
Thanks Scott.  I'm not sure if this got lost in the post somewhere, but I have not started anything or purchased anything yet.  The only thing I have done so far is recruited friends (and myself) to save all the bottles I will need to get started.  I am at the "all-grain" section of "How to Brew" now and am probably going to stop by the book store and pick up another book to read...I'm thinking Papazian's book. 

I'm just trying to get a good grasp of the concepts/methods first, save a good sized chunk of money, and then buy the items I need to get started.  I most likely will not get started until after the new year, mainly because money is going into savings for Christmas.  Once I decide on a setup, I may start buying smaller pieces, maybe get the mash tun built, but that's all for now. 

I guess I'm still a bit confused about the whole setup I had originally suggested.  Over lunch today, I watched a video again that I had watched a few weeks ago.  It was John Palmer, author of "How to Brew" showing a ten gallon brew using 10 gallon igloo mash tun and HLT.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5J8S5nBdUc&list=WLo0wfCJNs1cqyqzIIpwgpw63AKoNojJdy

I know someone had mentioned brewing only lower gravity beers with that type of setup, and the question I have is...is he brewing a low gravity beer in this video?  It makes me wonder if I do a fly sparge with the two cooler setup, and can brew a 10 gallon batch of a brown ale, I'd be happy.  And if I were to want to brew a higher gravity beer, couldn't I just use the 10 gallon system but just brew a 5 gallon batch?
 
top_jimmy44 said:
Thanks Scott.  I'm not sure if this got lost in the post somewhere, but I have not started anything or purchased anything yet.  The only thing I have done so far is recruited friends (and myself) to save all the bottles I will need to get started.  I am at the "all-grain" section of "How to Brew" now and am probably going to stop by the book store and pick up another book to read...I'm thinking Papazian's book. 

I'm just trying to get a good grasp of the concepts/methods first, save a good sized chunk of money, and then buy the items I need to get started.  I most likely will not get started until after the new year, mainly because money is going into savings for Christmas.  Once I decide on a setup, I may start buying smaller pieces, maybe get the mash tun built, but that's all for now. 

I guess I'm still a bit confused about the whole setup I had originally suggested.  Over lunch today, I watched a video again that I had watched a few weeks ago.  It was John Palmer, author of "How to Brew" showing a ten gallon brew using 10 gallon igloo mash tun and HLT.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5J8S5nBdUc&list=WLo0wfCJNs1cqyqzIIpwgpw63AKoNojJdy

I know someone had mentioned brewing only lower gravity beers with that type of setup, and the question I have is...is he brewing a low gravity beer in this video?  It makes me wonder if I do a fly sparge with the two cooler setup, and can brew a 10 gallon batch of a brown ale, I'd be happy.  And if I were to want to brew a higher gravity beer, couldn't I just use the 10 gallon system but just brew a 5 gallon batch?

If I were in your shoes, I'd start with the 10 gallon igloo mash tun.  If you're going to fly sparge, then you'll have to have the HLT!  Fly sparging is much more advanced than batch sparging for someone just starting out.  Making the fly sparging arm requires that you have a HLT (added expense) and build the fly sparge system (more added expense).  I don't mean to discourage away from fly sparging though.

It's just that it adds cost and complication right from the start.  If you start with just the igloo cooler mash tun and batch sparge until you learn the brewing process, you'll still make great beer that way.

We had 5 different set ups in my driveway this past Saturday.  Four of the five were batch sparge and one was fly sparge.

Fly sparging also takes about an additional 45 minutes to an hour longer over batch sparging.  You can make just about anything in your 10 gallon mash tun, as long as it's a 5 gallon batch.  I got 1.089 starting gravity out of my system on Saturday.  I did a ten gallon batch with basically a 5 gallon recipe in each 12 gallon mash tun, and they were no where near full.  I've gotten as high as 1.100 SG out of my 12 gallon mash tun. 

Trust me when I tell you that your 10 gallon mash tun is a great starting point.  It will keep your costs reasonable at start up, while not causing you to purchase something that you can't use after you upgrade.  If you start with the 10 gallon igloo cooler and batch sparge and later decide that you want to go to a larger mash tun and fly sparging, it's as easy as getting that 70 quart cooler and using it for a mash tun, and repurposing your 10 gallon mash tun into a 10 gallon HLT.

The only thing you'd have that you won't be able to re-use if you switch to fly sparging is the bazooka screen or manifold that you use in the bottom of the igloo cooler.  Fly sparging requires a manifold in the bottom of the mash tun, so that you pull the wort down evenly through the grain bed when you fly sparge.  It sprinkles on top from your HLT and goes straight down through. 

With batch sparging, you can get away with a bazooka screen, which is just a long stainless mesh tube that hooks to the outlet.  A bazooka screen runs about $18 at my home brew supply store.  So it's not that big of an expense.

Let me stress, with a 10 gallon igloo cooler, you'll be able to brew just about anything in 5 gallon batch sizes.  With the 70 quart cooler, you'll be able to brew anything in 5 gallon batches and most beers in 10 gallon batches.

Batch sparging is easy.
Fly sparging isn't difficult, but it isn't as easy as batch sparging.  The learning curve is a little steeper.

Is the book your reading John Palmer's "How To Brew"?  If it is, you're off to a great start!

Also, I don't know where you're located at, but look for a local homebrew club and attend the meetings.  You don't need to be brewing to join a homebrew club.  Make brewing friends now.  Most homebrewers would welcome the opportunity to help you get started right.  I know our club would welcome it.
 
Thanks Scott.  I did contact a local brewer's guild and they are having a get together this week so I may try to go to that if I can.  I am reading How To Brew by Palmer.  It has been a good read so far. 

I understand what you are saying about the fly sparge vs batch.  Only reason I thought I'd do fly was to increase efficiency, but if it is negligible, maybe it wouldn't be worth it to me.  Would love to see pics of your 12 gallon mash tun setup.  In my research, I have seen so many different versions of cooler mash tuns that I think I'm confusing myself. 

Jim
 
Here are photos of my system.
 

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The one thing i would definitely suggest is to NOT bottle from the carboy.  We can all offer differing opinions on how we operate our brewday, and it can get confusing... ;) just keep working on your brew and a method will arise, but...
When you bottle you will prolly be adding a priming sugar to the beer, and it would be a little easier if you rack it off of the trub first, into a sanatized priming bucket
 
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