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I thought I knew what I was doing but clearly I don't!

Pompeysie

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Jun 5, 2013
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Hi all

i have now brewed three, all grain, batches of beer using Beersmith as my software of choice. I thought I knew what I was doing but I have noticed that all of my brews so far have ended up being much weaker, in terms of the final ABV, than projected by the recipes (I have only used recipes from Beersmith). 

Having spent a little time fiddling about with the application, I have noticed a few things that I just don't understand. Here's a couple of observations:

1. I set up my equipment profile (i'm using two 36 litre converted kegs for my boiler and one for my mashtun and a large pot for the lauter bin). I notice that when I apply my profile to a recipe, it lowers the projected ABV. I also note that if I modify the batch volume size, this also affects the projected ABV. Should I keep the batch volume of the original recipe rather than use the batch volume I want to go for with my equipment (I would normally aim for 25 litres into the fermentation vessel)?

2. I also note that the brewhouse efficiency also changes the ABV which makes sense to me. Clearly the less efficient the brewhouse, the less sugar one can extract from the grain. My efficiency is set at about 62% currently but I made this calculation based upon the last few brews, which as I said above, has used the profile to produce 25litres of beer.

3. Can I check that the volumes one adds to one's equipment profile for the Mash Tun Volume = the maximum volume your mash tun can take (mine is currently 36litres)

Is this me simply being an idiot and not "scaling the recipe" for my equipment profile? I fear it may be! I think my process to date has been to load a recipe and then select my equipment profile from the equipment drop down on the design tab.

Apologies for the rambling nature of this post. Thanks for reading, if you made it this far!

Any advice, comments, abuse welcome!

Simon

 
Hi Simon;

BeerSmith has a lot of moving parts for a lot of varying brewing conditions. Also, it has a few math errors, which need work arounds.

First, how are the equipment profile numbers fitting with your actual experience. BeerSmith starts with some assumptions, but relies on you to be accurate.

You've correctly figured out that you want to use the scale function for adapting recipes to your brewing setup. But, don't just do this automatically. Look at what the writer has for equipment, losses, mashing and fermentation before just swapping things out. Procedures might need adaptation in your brewery.

It is VERY important to note that Brewhouse Efficiency is related to your batch size. A math error that BeerSmith contains is that Loss to Trub and Chiller INCREASES expected efficiency and often gravity, rather than dilute it, as it should. The easiest work around is to set that loss number to zero, adding that amount to your batch size.

Another error for the super precise is that wort thermal expansion volume shows up again as part of the sparge volume. I actually just found this one today and will be posting it, later.
 
Simon, When you copy a recipe out of a magazine, etc. just enter the data as is. When you enter everything, you also need to create an equipment profile or use one of the existing ones while maintaining the batch size of the original recipe. This is where you need to do a little guess work about how it was brewed & on what equipment. Don't over think everything. With experience it will become easier to work backwards from a batch size.

Then when you click the "Scale Recipe" button, change to your desired equipment (your setup), and you also have the option of having the original gravity, color, and bitterness.
 
Thanks for the excellent response. I have a couple of specific questions now, as a consequence.

First, how are the equipment profile numbers fitting with your actual experience. BeerSmith starts with some assumptions, but relies on you to be accurate.

My profile numbers are accurate. I think it's how I use the profile that is the issue.

You've correctly figured out that you want to use the scale function for adapting recipes to your brewing setup. But, don't just do this automatically. Look at what the writer has for equipment, losses, mashing and fermentation before just swapping things out. Procedures might need adaptation in your brewery.

I guess this comes with experience but is rather bewildering as a noob! It would be awesomely useful to see a video, or read a step by step tutorial, from someone like yourself, showing in detail the whole process in action. We could then see exactly what you do in terms of tweaks etc.

It is VERY important to note that Brewhouse Efficiency is related to your batch size. A math error that BeerSmith contains is that Loss to Trub and Chiller INCREASES expected efficiency and often gravity, rather than dilute it, as it should. The easiest work around is to set that loss number to zero, adding that amount to your batch size.

I didn't know that. A great tip thanks!

Another error for the super precise is that wort thermal expansion volume shows up again as part of the sparge volume. I actually just found this one today and will be posting it, later.

Got ya! How do you account for this then?

Thanks again.

Simon
 
Thanks River Brewer. It seems I was forgetting to scale the recipe using my profile. As I said above, it would be great to watch a tutorial where the whole process, from finding a recipe to completion of brew, is demonstrated. Maybe, once I have cracked it, I'll make one!

Simon


RiverBrewer said:
Simon, When you copy a recipe out of a magazine, etc. just enter the data as is. When you enter everything, you also need to create an equipment profile or use one of the existing ones while maintaining the batch size of the original recipe. This is where you need to do a little guess work about how it was brewed & on what equipment. Don't over think everything. With experience it will become easier to work backwards from a batch size.

Then when you click the "Scale Recipe" button, change to your desired equipment (your setup), and you also have the option of having the original gravity, color, and bitterness.
 
Thanks for the tip brewfun! Explains my numbers being off by a couple of points.

It is VERY important to note that Brewhouse Efficiency is related to your batch size. A math error that BeerSmith contains is that Loss to Trub and Chiller INCREASES expected efficiency and often gravity, rather than dilute it, as it should. The easiest work around is to set that loss number to zero, adding that amount to your batch size.
 
Well your learning to brew AG & wrestling with BeerSmith2.1! You have made two good choices so far. Believe me a weak beer is better than a nasty beer. Since you kind of had a scaling issue, now that how to do this, I would push the brew house efficiency up to 75 and start from there. Your main concern is to control the mash temp to get the sugars you need. There has been some excellent post about techniques to control the mash temp recently. Use the SEARCH function of this forum to locate the info.
Good Luck
 
brewfun said:
A math error that BeerSmith contains is that Loss to Trub and Chiller INCREASES expected efficiency and often gravity, rather than dilute it, as it should. The easiest work around is to set that loss number to zero, adding that amount to your batch size.

Is this an error only in the latest version or also in version 2.1 which I am using? To be clear, when you say add the amount the amount to the batch size do you mean just literally add the extra to the batch size amount in the equipment profile (mine would go from 25 litres up to 29 litres).

Cheers

Simon
 
Pompeysie said:
brewfun said:
A math error that BeerSmith contains is that Loss to Trub and Chiller INCREASES expected efficiency and often gravity.
Is this an error only in the latest version or also in version 2.1 which I am using? To be clear, when you say add the amount the amount to the batch size do you mean just literally add the extra to the batch size amount in the equipment profile (mine would go from 25 litres up to 29 litres).

Yes, the error is in 2.1. The solution is to place your batch size at 29 litres, then add the four litres to your fermenter loss.

I posted the error in the Bugs forum. To illustrate it, I attached a recipe that used pure sugar and a 1:1 ratio  of water to weight. Sugar is 100% dissolvable, therefore a 100% yield. This is supposed to yield a 1.046, which it does when trub is 0. When I moved 10% of the volume to trub, deducting that from yield, the yield went to 1.051, or 111% of what a pound of sugar can yield.
 
A last, quick, question re. this issue. If I add the extra to the Fermenter Loss rather than Loss to Trub, the Boil Volume goes up too. Will this not effect the amount that Beersmith tells me to add to the mash etc?

Simon
 
Pompeysie said:
A last, quick, question re. this issue. If I add the extra to the Fermenter Loss rather than Loss to Trub, the Boil Volume goes up too. Will this not effect the amount that Beersmith tells me to add to the mash etc?

I'm not quite following what you're saying. AFAIK, the first three items in the right hand column of the equipment profile change boil volume calculations. Fermenter Loss should change the Bottling Volume number, but not the boil volume.

Each time you add or subtract from your trub loss you have to re-adjust your Brewhouse efficiency.

HERE'S AN IMPORTANT NOTE.

A simplified version of figuring your brewhouse efficiency is the following formula:

BHE = (Sg x BV) / (Pg x GW)

BHE: Brew House Efficiency
Sg: Wort Specific Gravity, post chill (or post boil)
BV: Batch Volume, as measured in the fermenter
Pg: Potential gravity of grain
GW: Grain Weight

This formula simply divides the gravity points yielded into the fermenter by the total gravity point potential of grain (or extract or sugars) used.

When designing a recipe, you can rough in your BHE with this calculation.
 
brewfun said:
I'm not quite following what you're saying. AFAIK, the first three items in the right hand column of the equipment profile change boil volume calculations. Fermenter Loss should change the Bottling Volume number, but not the boil volume.

Sorry. I was confused. I understand now.

brewfun said:
Each time you add or subtract from your trub loss you have to re-adjust your Brewhouse efficiency.

HERE'S AN IMPORTANT NOTE.

A simplified version of figuring your brewhouse efficiency is the following formula:

BHE = (Sg x BV) / (Pg x GW)

BHE: Brew House Efficiency
Sg: Wort Specific Gravity, post chill (or post boil)
BV: Batch Volume, as measured in the fermenter
Pg: Potential gravity of grain
GW: Grain Weight

This formula simply divides the gravity points yielded into the fermenter by the total gravity point potential of grain (or extract or sugars) used.

When designing a recipe, you can rough in your BHE with this calculation.

Fantastic! How do I find the Pg of the grain?

Thanks again for your help.

Simon
 
brewfun said:
It is VERY important to note that Brewhouse Efficiency is related to your batch size. A math error that BeerSmith contains is that Loss to Trub and Chiller INCREASES expected efficiency and often gravity, rather than dilute it, as it should. The easiest work around is to set that loss number to zero, adding that amount to your batch size.

Thanks Brewfun!
 
Pompeysie said:
Fantastic! How do I find the Pg of the grain?

Thanks for the compliment! 

The Pg is found in the Potential field when you double click an ingredient.  As with all gravity calculations, the 1.0 is dropped. So, 1.040 becomes 40 points.
 
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