Brun N Water and all base malt beer

I got a question about Ph estimation for those who use bru n water.  I plan on making a cream ale soon and I've been a big fan of brun water but when I input my base grains which is all the cream ale is going to be, I can't get the estimated mash ph into the suggested 5.2-5.5 range without adding so many minerals (i.e. salts) that just about all the suggested limits for things like SO4 and NaCl are busted.  This is the case even if I use 100% dilution with distilled water. 

I'm just curious as to how a mineral free base water profile would need so much added salts to get an all base malt beer into the desired ph range? 

thoughts? 

Did you try using the acid section in Bru'n?  Phosphoric or lactic?  I always add some calcium chloride to my Omaha water since it's under 50 ppm but most of my pH adjustments come from the use of lactic acid.  Hope this helps.


Mark

Don't use minerals alone to try and get your pH down to 5.2 (at mash temp).

I use distilled water with my all pilsner (2.0 SRM) malt beers.

I add enough salt to get about 20 ppm of Sodium. 

Then I add enough CaCl and CaSO4 to get 100 ppm of calcium in the mash.
I spread it between the two to have equal ppm of Chloride and Sulfate. 

This results in a mash pH of about 5.55 - 5.6 (room temp), 5 minutes after dough-in.  I lower the pH with about 1 ml of 88% lactic acid.  This usually gets me down around 5.4 (at room temp...projected to 5.2-5.3 at mash temp). 

Even the purist Germans use lactic acid to get the mash pH where it should be.  they just use acidulated malt to get the needed acid.  But, the chemical is the same (Lactic Acid)...just the delivery vehicle is different.

I don't use BruN'Water though.  I used to use EZ Water 3.0, which is *similar* in its calculation methods.  I've graduated to the mash pH tool over at  Brewer's Friend now.  The only reason I did that is because I find that it is more accurate across a wider range of malt bills and water profiles. 

My own water is quite hard, with a good amount of alkalinity.  The chemistry of this water profile is complex, and the simplified models of bruN'Water and EZ Water doesn't always get it right.  Kai's model over at brewer's friend is much better, and has always been accurate to within 0.05 pH...which is within the limits of my pH meter measurement error. 

+1 on the use of acids. However, I use phosphoric since lactic can be tasted in higher doses. I currently use a 25% solution but the next time I purchase I will be buying the 88% solution. Bruin Water has always been great for me and has been within .05 of my target. So no worries with this spreadsheet. Do you have the free version or the donation version?

The calculators are a handy tool! I have them but I don't use them much now since I let my experience with water treatment guide me. I know we all love to "nail the numbers", but after knowing and dialing in your system you need to put your experience to work. Adding acid to your brewing water is simple if you have the right tools.
I treat the total water (mash & sparge) with 10 % Phosphoric Acid. My beer has improved significantly! My rationale here is if it works for
Sierra Nevada, it can only make my beer better (and it has).
I use two pH meters, a Hanna Piccolo Hi 1280 & a Martini pH55. I make sure my meter's electrodes are conditioned by soaking in fresh storage solution 24 hours before I brew. I use a couple of tall double shot tequila shot glasses to soak. Tip.....The Hanna unit stays wet in storage better than the Martini, so if you own a Martini you need to add drops of storage solution weekly. I calibrate usually once a month. Building from RO water, I determine my sulfate/chloride ratio and add minerals (avoiding chalk since it is a poor dissolver) to room temp water prior to adding acid. Always starting with 28 gallons, I know I can add at least 20 ml of 10% phosphoric acid, recirculate the water, measure the pH, add a small final addition of acid to get the water to about 5.4 pH. My mash is usually about 5.3 pH. My porter was 5.2 pH. I haven't seen any drastic differences between dark & light malts to loose sleep over. Soak your meter in cleaning solution for 5 minute after EVERY brew session. Learning to take care of your meter is essential! My meters are in close agreement and they function to double check each other. They are both good for brewing!

These responses have been great.  A lot of new insight.  It does make me wonder how the brewers of old got their ph down to where it needed to be before they knew about acids and how to use them.  I just sort of always assumed that an all base malt beer would fall into the necessary range if brewed with distilled water.  The fact that doesn't happen makes me feel better about my process and calculations but more importantly, I now know there is another tool (acids) I need to explore to help make my beers better. 

Wildrover said:

It does make me wonder how the brewers of old got their ph down to where it needed to be before they knew about acids and how to use them. 

Click to expand...

With brewing history, there are very old things you'd quickly recognize and things that are surprisingly recent. Brewers always love new information and techniques. Chemistry was one of the first sciences to be documented and developed as its own skill. Virtually every hopped beer "style" is post 1840 ("Dry Stout" is post WW II) and most techniques are from the 20th century. Things we think of as "critical" for yeast health and hop use are less than 30 years old. Some info is less than a decade.

Burton brewers blended spring and river sources, and apparently boiled it for 15 minutes before using to reduce RA. Going back to the 17th & 18th century, yeast was considered an acid that split sugar into spirit, but if left too long split spirit into vinegar.

One thing that has been true, brewers are the first to adopt new technologies. Steam, the hydrometer, germ theory, refrigeration; all had early adoption in the beer industry. Even the most coveted home brew setups tend to be the most advanced.