BeerSmith™ Home Brewing Forum

Brewing Topics => Non Brewing Discussion => Topic started by: Oginme on January 31, 2018, 06:58:23 PM

Title: Forum Friction
Post by: Oginme on January 31, 2018, 06:58:23 PM
I want to address some of the tension which has surfaced on this forum in the past few weeks. 

First of all, I am saddened that several people who have been giving good advice on this forum have let me know they will no longer be participating due to the recent activity. As with any on-line forum that I have participated in, there is always an ebb and flow of people who join and contribute to the discussions which take place.  I can understand when they feel that their opinions and experience are dismissed or not valued that they may decide to move on to a more welcoming venue.  In the end, it is a loss to this forum and to those of us who may stay.

Second, I have always tried to participate with the idea that I should be helping, informing or increasing the value of this forum to the other members who participate and read the active threads.  There have been many times I have typed out a reply and then reread it and deleted it because it did (1) not further the conversation, (2) not add to the information being presented, or (3) I was basically being a dick.  Posting a reply which does not meet this standard is really just wasting people's time and band width and does not reflect favorably on me.

Third, most people here who answer the posts have a fair to excellent amount of experience both in using the software and in brewing.  To dismiss their experiences, opinions, and data with a blanket statement is basically rude, in my opinion.  Everyone has something to contribute and your answers should reflect what you know and have experienced.  At the same time, I always post from my experience bases with the knowledge that my experiences and understanding is not what everyone else has experienced and understands.  In that sense, I always try to respect others thoughts and opinions with the thought that I might be the one that is wrong.  Likewise, if I am wrong or mistaken, then it serves as a great way for me to expand and learn about this hobby we share.  In short, be prepared to be wrong and relish it as a learning experience, don't get defensive but think about the new information and either absorb it or reject it WITH REASON.

Fourth, always respect the other people on the forum, mostly because you may be the one in the wrong.  Realize that what might work for you, might not work for others and vice versa (I thought that was erotic Italian poetry, but learned differently).  There are hundreds, if not thousands, of ways of making wort, growing yeast, fermenting, and packaging.  Yours is not the best or the worst, it is just another way.  If it works well for you, greater power to you.  If other methods and processes work better for other people, more power to them.  If they get the beer they want out of the process they follow, then great!

Fifth, just don't be a dick.  Life is too short and it takes away from time brewing or consuming our fermented beverages.  Remember that you have two ears and only one mouth, and eight fingers and two thumbs to hold over that mouth before it becomes full of foot.  Besides, while you are holding your fingers over your mouth to stop from saying something stupid, you can't type something stupid!

Sixth, although I have covered many of the points here I invite everyone to check out https://elearningindustry.com/10-netiquette-tips-online-discussions.  It is not the best list , but it is short and concise (which at times I have not been).

Seventh, give credit where it is due.  This extends into admitting when you've made a mistake or said something poorly, was ill-conceived, or just plain worthless.  It also acknowledges those people who have given a good response, even when you think yours might be better. 

I check this forum frequently and have tried to be of help to those people seeking advice because I feel that I do have something to offer.  I have worked as a process engineer, process control engineer, product development chemist (engineer), goat breeder, and product development leader.  From this background, I think I have developed a fairly good understanding of how the BeerSmith software operates and enjoy aiding others to make it work better for them.   Along the way, I always hope to learn more myself, and often do.  [OK, I can hear some of you thinking "goat breeder?  How does that help?"-- well when you play at mixing and  matching genetic traits, you quickly realize that they don't always work out the way you want them to.]   

In the end, this forum is what we, the users, make of it.  Brad may own it and oversee it, but it is ours to make it somewhere virtual where we all want to hang out.  I am on enough other forums where people act like dicks that I really don't want to see this one go that way.
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: KellerBrauer on January 31, 2018, 08:35:38 PM
Greetings All and especially Oginme - I have read your viewpoints and could not agree with you more.  Your views and opinions are well written, articulate and to the point.  I believe every contributor to this wonderful forum needs to read and follow your principles.

I too feel it?s important for all who post here to understand that they are NOT always right and they, like everyone else, has an opinion and, in turn, should respect the opinion of others without argument, insults, or negative innuendo.

I have contributed to this forum for a few years now and I can say with great confidence, I have posted some really bad advise not really knowing any better, only to learn better from another brewer on the same thread.  My point is: even though I posted bad advise, I was never put down, I was never humiliated, and I was never made to feel I did something inappropriate.  Instead, I was able to learn for myself when one of the other brewers posted much better advise that I was able to learn from.

Likewise, I have also made accurate, correct and sound suggestions that seemingly went in one ear, of the person with the question, and flew right straight out the other while that person follows a wrong path.  Do I feel good about it?  No.  But it happens, get over it, move on.

So, my hats off to you, Oginme.  You have once again come through with some great words of wisdom that all should read because I, personally, don?t want to see this wonderful forum turn to garbage because of an ego issue, or because there are those who will not respect the opinion of others or who must step on others to prove they are right.
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: Ck27 on January 31, 2018, 08:43:15 PM
Greetings All and especially Oginme - I have read your viewpoints and could not agree with you more.  Your views and opinions are well written, articulate and to the point.  I believe every contributor to this wonderful forum needs to read and follow your principles.

I too feel it?s important for all who post here to understand that they are NOT always right and they, like everyone else, has an opinion and, in turn, should respect the opinion of others without argument, insults, or negative innuendo.

I have contributed to this forum for a few years now and I can say with great confidence, I have posted some really bad advise not really knowing any better, only to learn better from another brewer on the same thread.  My point is: even though I posted bad advise, I was never put down, I was never humiliated, and I was never made to feel I did something inappropriate.  Instead, I was able to learn for myself when one of the other brewers posted much better advise that I was able to learn from.

Likewise, I have also made accurate, correct and sound suggestions that seemingly went in one ear, of the person with the question, and flew right straight out the other while that person follows a wrong path.  Do I feel good about it?  No.  But it happens, get over it, move on.

So, my hats off to you, Oginme.  You have once again come through with some great words of wisdom that all should read because I, personally, don?t want to see this wonderful forum turn to garbage because of an ego issue, or because there are those who will not respect the opinion of others or who must step on others to prove they are right.

I am glad that Oginme decided to make a post on it and my hats off to him for it, its been something thats been stressing me out greatly and I have been in deep contact with Brad Regarding it.  I hope that others read it and pay attention to Oginmes advice, the guy gives really good advice, and if we all followed it, we would be greatly improving forum relations and brewing better beer.

:)

And Keller glad that you decided to add to it, the 2 of you guys should almost be Moderators, well i would vote for Oginme thats for sure.

:)
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: GigaFemto on January 31, 2018, 10:34:43 PM
Well stated, Oginme. I was disturbed by some of the comments and had a reply written out, then deleted it at the last second, just as you say you have done many times. I was pleased to see your well-reasoned response.

--GF

P.S. I just noticed that karma seems to be gone (from the forum, not from life)
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: Ck27 on February 01, 2018, 12:31:25 AM
Well stated, Oginme. I was disturbed by some of the comments and had a reply written out, then deleted it at the last second, just as you say you have done many times. I was pleased to see your well-reasoned response.

--GF

P.S. I just noticed that karma seems to be gone (from the forum, not from life)
Brad has disabled it for now.
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: BOB357 on February 01, 2018, 06:43:30 AM
Well stated Oginme. Sometimes we need a reminder to stay on topic and put personal feelings aside. Thank you for the reminder and all that you contribute to this great forum.
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: Kevin58 on February 02, 2018, 09:57:38 AM
There are certain posters who's opinions and reply's are always welcome... Oginme is certainly one of them. Thank you. Then there are one or two I have set in my profile setting to ignore. Not to be rude but life is much easier sometimes when you just remove the irritants.
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: jomebrew on February 02, 2018, 01:23:12 PM
There are certain posters who's opinions and reply's are always welcome... Oginme is certainly one of them. Thank you. Then there are one or two I have set in my profile setting to ignore. Not to be rude but life is much easier sometimes when you just remove the irritants.

Good advice.  I didn't realize there was an ignore list, only a buddy list. 

Y'all mind if I move this topic to "Off Topic"?

Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: Ck27 on February 02, 2018, 02:12:34 PM
There are certain posters who's opinions and reply's are always welcome... Oginme is certainly one of them. Thank you. Then there are one or two I have set in my profile setting to ignore. Not to be rude but life is much easier sometimes when you just remove the irritants.

Good advice.  I didn't realize there was an ignore list, only a buddy list. 

Y'all mind if I move this topic to "Off Topic"?

Sure thing :)
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: BOB357 on February 02, 2018, 02:24:04 PM
No problem with that here.
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: BILLY BREW on February 07, 2018, 01:04:18 PM
As with any forum such as this, there are many different types that sign on. I have to say that from all the years I have been contributing and using this awesome resource, I have not had one moments hesitation to continue. The advice is 99% awesome 1% not so much...Wish everything else in life was that one sided. Even having brewed for over a quarter of a century I often feel like a novice when I come onto the forum, and that is great! I realize that my hobby will never get boring for me. Keep on keeping on, fellas. We're family
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: Ck27 on February 07, 2018, 03:09:48 PM
As with any forum such as this, there are many different types that sign on. I have to say that from all the years I have been contributing and using this awesome resource, I have not had one moments hesitation to continue. The advice is 99% awesome 1% not so much...Wish everything else in life was that one sided. Even having brewed for over a quarter of a century I often feel like a novice when I come onto the forum, and that is great! I realize that my hobby will never get boring for me. Keep on keeping on, fellas. We're family

Even though I've been brewing just a few years and obviously many people who have been brewing longer exist. I like to think I know a good deal about brewing. I guess when it comes to brewing I'm more innovative and spend time on recreating and preserving history. Specifically recipies.

I'm here to help where I can but usually Oginme beats everyone to it.
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: brewfun on February 07, 2018, 08:36:20 PM
I like to think I know a good deal about brewing.

No doubt that you do. It's when you've insulted the knowledge or choices of others that things go pear shaped.

Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: Ck27 on February 08, 2018, 03:10:00 AM
I like to think I know a good deal about brewing.

No doubt that you do. It's when you've insulted the knowledge or choices of others that things go pear shaped.

Some days if someone's already upset me or something else is going on I can be a bit err acidic or course to people.

But for the most part I try to not do so.
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: Kevin58 on February 08, 2018, 08:41:02 AM
I like to think I know a good deal about brewing.

No doubt that you do. It's when you've insulted the knowledge or choices of others that things go pear shaped.

Kudos! (since someone cried and had them removed)
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: brewfun on February 08, 2018, 08:56:18 AM
Some days if someone's already upset me or something else is going on I can be a bit err acidic or course to people.

But for the most part I try to not do so.

So, you have a bad day and take it out on us? Grow up.

That's exactly how you've earned your negative karma. Your ultimate remedy was to go whining enough to get it reset for your self twice and ultimately turned off? Congrat-u-effin-lations. You've created your reputation, but you won't live with it?

You're forgetting the most important thing: Forums like this are for collaboration, not self aggrandizement. Go to HBD for that. We all participate here for FUN and INFORMATION. I choose to participate here, because I'm inspired by the questions. I choose to participate here because I'm challenged to be a better communicator by the other participants.

Both online and offline, you've insulted the work and efforts of some of my closest friends. Take PicoBrew, for example. You don't care for the machine and that's fine. But to tell me offline that they're chinese owned and just in it for the money, when they are a small company based in Seattle is absurd. Worse is that you told me that my own friends don't work there? ...C'mon, man!

Posting that nobody else in a thread knows what they're talking about, whilst simultaneously misstating where whirlfloc is used is not helping your case, either. In yet another thread you're an advocate of filtering?

Then there's the "bad advice" I've supposedly given you? Get a grip, dude!

I share actual techniques for beer I make a living from. If something doesn't make sense, I WANT you to ask followup questions and I'll do my best to explain. I don't keep everything in my head, that's what my library of brewing books is for. That's what being a member of the ASBC, MBAA and BA is for! The BEST THING about brewing is that I've never stopped learning!

I'm going to keep contributing technical information about processes, ingredients and techniques. I'm going to continue giving actual professional advice on the Pro Brewing Topic forum. I've taught and mentored some brewers who are well known and others who are rising stars. I don't care that I'm never going to be a rockstar brewer, but I will keep being like the guy who taught Hendrix a few blues licks.

Your words are your legacy. Choose them wisely.
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: Ck27 on February 08, 2018, 12:20:45 PM
I like to think I know a good deal about brewing.

No doubt that you do. It's when you've insulted the knowledge or choices of others that things go pear shaped.

Kudos! (since someone cried and had them removed)

It's fine, as long as nobody picks fights we should be fine :)
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: jtoots on February 14, 2018, 07:32:48 AM
Some days if someone's already upset me or something else is going on I can be a bit err acidic or course to people.

But for the most part I try to not do so.

So, you have a bad day and take it out on us? Grow up.

That's exactly how you've earned your negative karma. Your ultimate remedy was to go whining enough to get it reset for your self twice and ultimately turned off? Congrat-u-effin-lations. You've created your reputation, but you won't live with it?

You're forgetting the most important thing: Forums like this are for collaboration, not self aggrandizement. Go to HBD for that. We all participate here for FUN and INFORMATION. I choose to participate here, because I'm inspired by the questions. I choose to participate here because I'm challenged to be a better communicator by the other participants.

Both online and offline, you've insulted the work and efforts of some of my closest friends. Take PicoBrew, for example. You don't care for the machine and that's fine. But to tell me offline that they're chinese owned and just in it for the money, when they are a small company based in Seattle is absurd. Worse is that you told me that my own friends don't work there? ...C'mon, man!

Posting that nobody else in a thread knows what they're talking about, whilst simultaneously misstating where whirlfloc is used is not helping your case, either. In yet another thread you're an advocate of filtering?

Then there's the "bad advice" I've supposedly given you? Get a grip, dude!

I share actual techniques for beer I make a living from. If something doesn't make sense, I WANT you to ask followup questions and I'll do my best to explain. I don't keep everything in my head, that's what my library of brewing books is for. That's what being a member of the ASBC, MBAA and BA is for! The BEST THING about brewing is that I've never stopped learning!

I'm going to keep contributing technical information about processes, ingredients and techniques. I'm going to continue giving actual professional advice on the Pro Brewing Topic forum. I've taught and mentored some brewers who are well known and others who are rising stars. I don't care that I'm never going to be a rockstar brewer, but I will keep being like the guy who taught Hendrix a few blues licks.

Your words are your legacy. Choose them wisely.

Kudos! (since someone cried and had them removed)
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: Ck27 on February 14, 2018, 11:54:59 AM
Some days if someone's already upset me or something else is going on I can be a bit err acidic or course to people.

But for the most part I try to not do so.

So, you have a bad day and take it out on us? Grow up.

That's exactly how you've earned your negative karma. Your ultimate remedy was to go whining enough to get it reset for your self twice and ultimately turned off? Congrat-u-effin-lations. You've created your reputation, but you won't live with it?

You're forgetting the most important thing: Forums like this are for collaboration, not self aggrandizement. Go to HBD for that. We all participate here for FUN and INFORMATION. I choose to participate here, because I'm inspired by the questions. I choose to participate here because I'm challenged to be a better communicator by the other participants.

Both online and offline, you've insulted the work and efforts of some of my closest friends. Take PicoBrew, for example. You don't care for the machine and that's fine. But to tell me offline that they're chinese owned and just in it for the money, when they are a small company based in Seattle is absurd. Worse is that you told me that my own friends don't work there? ...C'mon, man!

Posting that nobody else in a thread knows what they're talking about, whilst simultaneously misstating where whirlfloc is used is not helping your case, either. In yet another thread you're an advocate of filtering?

Then there's the "bad advice" I've supposedly given you? Get a grip, dude!

I share actual techniques for beer I make a living from. If something doesn't make sense, I WANT you to ask followup questions and I'll do my best to explain. I don't keep everything in my head, that's what my library of brewing books is for. That's what being a member of the ASBC, MBAA and BA is for! The BEST THING about brewing is that I've never stopped learning!

I'm going to keep contributing technical information about processes, ingredients and techniques. I'm going to continue giving actual professional advice on the Pro Brewing Topic forum. I've taught and mentored some brewers who are well known and others who are rising stars. I don't care that I'm never going to be a rockstar brewer, but I will keep being like the guy who taught Hendrix a few blues licks.

Your words are your legacy. Choose them wisely.

Yep, but I should add a few things and correct a few things, I never said picobrew is Chinese I said that they are manufactured mostly with Chinese parts. Albeit in the us.

Secondly congrats about all your accomplishments and yes you can never stop learning I ask plenty of questions. But I also work for a brewery.

As to helping people I speak only when I know the answer or leave it to Oginme. Sometimes I get it wrong but s lot of what people state that other people say wrong is s matter of "opinion".

Anyways no hard feelings my friend you post a lot of helpful answers that I end up reading through.


Probably my biggest beersmith annoyance is all the daily Russian posts and people asking some questions that are so bad they are like asking how to breathe. But that's just life those things happen
Title: Re: Forum Friction
Post by: BILLY BREW on February 16, 2018, 05:38:09 PM
CK, just curious, what does your comment have to do with the subject I was responding to?

"Even though I've been brewing just a few years and obviously many people who have been brewing longer exist. I like to think I know a good deal about brewing. I guess when it comes to brewing I'm more innovative and spend time on recreating and preserving history. Specifically recipies.

I'm here to help where I can but usually Oginme beats everyone to it."