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Brewing Topics => All Grain/Advanced => Topic started by: Maine Homebrewer on February 02, 2013, 09:34:40 AM

Title: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on February 02, 2013, 09:34:40 AM
I just discovered that 55# sack of 6-row is $20 cheaper than a 55# sack of pilsner malt. Are there any disadvantages to 6-row? I know that it is necessary for adjunct beer, but otherwise I know little about it. Has anyone used it before?
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: merfizle on February 02, 2013, 09:55:06 AM
6 row has a bit more grainy flavor and higher protein content.  Higher proteins could mean a slightly longer mash.  2-row kernels are more uniform in size.  Check this out:

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/bmg/schwarz.html

How much are you paying for 2-row?  Just curious.  I know a local brewer and I buy bags of Rahr 2-row from him for $27.50.

Cheers,

Mark
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on February 02, 2013, 10:12:02 AM
Wow. Wish I knew a local brewer. I have the health food store special order it for me when the do their homebrew supply order, and after bulk discount it costs me $60.  The homebrew shop charges closer to $70. Weyermanns brand.
Thanks for the link. I bookmarked it and will check it out later.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: merfizle on February 02, 2013, 10:47:46 AM
Introduce yourself.  :)  We got to know local brewers by going to their release events, inviting them over to try out beers, brew with us, etc.  We also do bulk grain buys twice per year through the Brewers Supply Group.  This last time I bought Munich for $36, Franco Belges Wheat for $40 and Maris Otter for $40.

Mark
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: beernbourbon on February 02, 2013, 01:51:26 PM
Hey guys!.......
so I've recently gotten into the AG, lovin' it!!
My question to you guys is this...I've noticed a few guys talking about ordering in bulk; how do you guys store the grains(temp, etc)? How long do they last this way, that sort of thing?
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on February 02, 2013, 03:09:45 PM
Quote
how do you guys store the grains(temp, etc)? How long do they last this way, that sort of thing?

I only get my base grain (pilsner or pale, whole not crushed) in bulk. I just tie the bag off with some rope and leave it on a shelf in the basement.  Specialty grains go in freezer bags (on the shelf next to the base grain, not actually in the freezer, also whole not crushed) with the air pushed out.  So far I haven't had any issues with spoilage. I usually use the base grain up in a year or less, and I've had specialty grains last for years.  I also get my hops in bulk, or by the pound anyway (hopsdirect dot com).  Cuts the cost to a buck or less per ounce. They go in the freezer in a bag with all the air pushed out. I've had hops sit for two years without any noticeable deterioration.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: merfizle on February 02, 2013, 06:03:59 PM
Welcome!

I buy 5 or 7 gallons buckets from local hardware store and then get gamma lids.  You put a threaded collar around any bucket and then it's a screw on lid. 

(http://s18.postimage.org/xs1br3mth/20130202_185851_Large.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xs1br3mth/)

Mark
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: beernbourbon on February 02, 2013, 06:54:45 PM
Thanks for the welcome!
Never heard of a gamma lid, but I'll look into that. Eventually. I don't even have a grain crusher, so...... baby steps. It just kinda caught my eye, having seen it a couple times about people buying in bulk, and I'm always looking to what the next step is going to be.
I'm only in the midst of my second AG...a nice Belgian Blond Ale.....I'm excited for this one, I learned a lot from the last one. And I even bought the grain for the next one, and planning the one after that....oh no.....methinks I'm addicted!  :o

Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on February 03, 2013, 09:09:04 AM
I ordered ten pounds of the 6-row, just to try it out. For ten bucks, what could go wrong? See what happens.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: merfizle on February 03, 2013, 02:58:39 PM
Cool, let us know.  I've never used 6-row.  Thanks.

Mark
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on February 03, 2013, 03:15:23 PM
I also ordered a ten pounder of flaked maize. I've got plenty of noble hops on hand.  Figure I'll try my hand at an adjunct beer. Something light to enjoy after some yard work.

Thinking 1.035 - 1.040 starting gravity, 60% 6-row and 40% corn, Tettnanger hops, lager yeast. Will post the details as I work it out.

American piss, here I come!
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: MaltLicker on February 04, 2013, 08:43:12 AM
Friend of mine did just that with extract and flaked maize.  Jokingly dropped in one pellet of hops at three different times and called it "triple hopped." 
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: 88Q on February 04, 2013, 11:13:20 AM

The Difference: 2-Row vs 6-Row Barley
You can see the difference in the images to the right. 2-row is a smaller less yeilding barley, so why bother with it? 6-row barley has three flower florets (kernels) at each node. When the head is viewed top down it looks like there are six rows of kernels since each set of florets are offset and appear to be two rows. This gives you a much higher yield, so, again, why do we bother with 2-row? 2-row barley appears to have two rows of kernels if viewed from the top. All this space the kernels have to grow allow them to become larger and more plump. What does that mean to the brewer? More extract less protein. Yes, Six-row has higher enzymatic power, but in most cases you are not going to be lacking in enzymatic power. More protein means less carbohydrates and as a brewer you are trying to do a mash and the higher carbohydrates are desired. Using a blend or 6-row can be a way to increase your protein levels which can help in head retention and lacing in beer styles where that can be an issue
(http://labelpeelers.com/images/emails/row.jpg)
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: MaltLicker on February 04, 2013, 12:17:31 PM
Sounds like we could use a small amount of 6-row for head retention like we do wheat. 
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on February 16, 2013, 04:45:56 PM
So here's what I did today.

4# pilsner
2# 6-row
2# flaked maize

Mashed in at 142 and left to do some errands. Three hours later it was 138 and passed an iodine test.
Did my usual decoction and only reached 155. 
Half hour later I recirculated for another good half hour before sparging.

Boiled with 1oz Tettnanger (3.9%) for 60 minutes.

Yield was 5.5 gallons at 1.040.  Tasted good.

Pitched a packet of Saflager S-23 at 55 degrees.

Plan to dry hop .25 oz Tettnanger in the secondary.
I know it's borderline blasphemy for a homebrewer to make American adjunct pilsner, but I'm doing it anyway. They say it's the most difficult brew a homebrewer can attempt because with so little flavor there is no wiggle room, and I'm stepping up to the challenge.

See what happens. 
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Slurk on February 17, 2013, 04:45:44 AM
I know it's borderline blasphemy for a homebrewer to make American adjunct pilsner, but I'm doing it anyway. They say it's the most difficult brew a homebrewer can attempt because with so little flavor there is no wiggle room, and I'm stepping up to the challenge.
See what happens.

You will see that you again brewed a very good and tastefull beer with a nice profile ;) However, you will realize (again) you didn't even got close to the wiggle room you are referring to.  At least Maine H. you had the guts to try 8)  Cheers!!
Regards,
Slurk
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on February 17, 2013, 08:18:35 AM
Quote
you will realize (again) you didn't even got close to the wiggle room you are referring to

Yeah. I figure I'll need to use closer to 40% adjuncts to reach that wiggle room. 25% ain't close. Baby steps.  Maybe one day I'll put AB InBev out of business!
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on February 18, 2013, 12:45:13 PM
Well that packet of S-23 hadn't done much by this morning, so I pitched in the yeast from a previous batch that I had been using to practice yeast washing. Must have done something right because it took right off.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: tstinz01 on March 03, 2013, 09:43:53 AM
I used 6 row in an IPA along with 2 row and CC10.  Called it 2x6 IPA.  Turned out pretty tasty.  Revised recipe to add some additional grains for color and malt flavor, but haven't brewed it yet...will soon see how tweaks turn out.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: durrettd on March 03, 2013, 11:22:16 AM
I did a Classic American Pilsner (CAP) about four weeks ago and kegged/crashed it (as a clarifying secondary) at three weeks. It's three pounds of flaked corn and ten pounds of 6-row, mashed at 155 F, fermented at 50 F. So far it's very pale, cloudy, has a very faint sweetness, dry finish, and very faint maltiness. Unfortunately, it tastes a lot like a contemporary mass-market Pilsner, but it's been educational. Even if I don't drink much of it, I can palm it off on the unsuspecting, and it was fun to brew.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on March 08, 2013, 06:36:48 PM
Reason number umptysquat to use a roller mill instead of a pain-in-the-butt-to-adjust corona mill: Those six row kernels are indeed smaller. 

Ground stuff up for adjunct number two.  3# 6-row and 5# pils. Thing is adjusted great for the larger 2-row pils. But not the 6-row.   Hope it's crushed enough to do its magic on the 3# maize that will accompany it in the mash tomorrow.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on March 08, 2013, 06:38:47 PM
Quote
Unfortunately, it tastes a lot like a contemporary mass-market Pilsner

Isn't that the point? That means you nailed the style! Good job!
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on March 09, 2013, 03:31:38 PM
76% efficiency (5.5g @ 1.050) so I guess the grind wasn't too bad.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: tom_hampton on March 09, 2013, 03:41:31 PM
76% efficiency (5.5g @ 1.050) so I guess the grind wasn't too bad.

Mash efficiency or total?

I always shoot for mid to low 70s for total eff.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on March 09, 2013, 05:25:28 PM
Quote
Mash efficiency or total?

I always shoot for mid to low 70s for total eff.

I guess I don't understand the question.
3# corn + 3# 6-row + 5# pils -> 5.5g @ 1.050 = 76%

What's the difference between mash and total?
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: tom_hampton on March 09, 2013, 06:19:54 PM
Mash efficiency is sugars extracted from the mash. Total efficiency is sugars into the fermentr... What you calculated.
I concern myself more with mash efficiency because it has more impact on beer quality.  I prefer to keep my mash efficiency down to 75% or so. Higher than that generally means that the sparge has gotten low enough to risk tannin extraction from the husks. So, I use more grain, stop the sparge sooner and add water to make my preboilvolume.   
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on March 09, 2013, 08:00:29 PM
I like tannins in wine, and haven't ever noted them in my homebrew.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: beernbourbon on March 09, 2013, 08:01:32 PM
Mash efficiency is sugars extracted from the mash. Total efficiency is sugars into the fermentr... What you calculated.
I concern myself more with mash efficiency because it has more impact on beer quality.  I prefer to keep my mash efficiency down to 75% or so. Higher than that generally means that the sparge has gotten low enough to risk tannin extraction from the husks. So, I use more grain, stop the sparge sooner and add water to make my preboilvolume.   
So that's what Palmer's talking about with the commercial breweries vs us homebrewers, we can afford the extra grain, since we do it on such a small scale, so we can allow the efficiencies to be a little low.......<another AHA! moment brought to you by the experience and wisdom of Tom!> ;D
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: tom_hampton on March 09, 2013, 08:41:52 PM
I like tannins in wine, and haven't ever noted them in my homebrew.

So do I. Tannins are a very large class of organic chemicals.  They have a very broad range of flavors. The tannin in barley husks ddon't aren't as nice as those in red wine. Husky, grainy, flavors as well as the stereotypical tea leave mouth puckering texture all come from sparging to too low of a gravity.  Too low is generally below 1.010, or a ph above 6.0. But, it's not really digital. They closer the runnings get to these limits the lower the quality of the resulting wort.

That's why not sparge makes such a nice beer. And, it's why the second or third beer in a party gyle brew aren't as nice as the first.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: alcaponejunior on March 15, 2013, 05:50:58 PM
I also ordered a ten pounder of flaked maize. I've got plenty of noble hops on hand.  Figure I'll try my hand at an adjunct beer. Something light to enjoy after some yard work.

Thinking 1.035 - 1.040 starting gravity, 60% 6-row and 40% corn, Tettnanger hops, lager yeast. Will post the details as I work it out.

American piss, here I come!

I've been using a pound of flaked corn in my bleach blonde ale (http://alcaponejunior.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/bleach-blonde-ale-iv/) and it is getting brewed for the fourth time, third time with this grain bill, if that says anything!  I originally added the corn to lighten it up a bit and make it more appealing to BMC drinkers like my bro and our friend who always helps us brew.  Thing is, they're quickly becoming homebrew and craft beer lovers.  Big "D" bought a sixer of stone IPA today!  And liked it!  Bro is still mostly Busch for commercial but has drank plenty of every homebrew we've made.  So the reason for putting corn in has vanished.  However, the recipe remains good and is one of two "house brews."

I've used six-row once in a partial mash recipe, a couple pounds worth or so.  Couldn't really tell the dif with other similar recipes that used two-row.  From reading this thread I might try it when I want to make a maltier beer.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Maine Homebrewer on November 02, 2013, 01:19:48 PM
Well, I never followed up on this. Might as well.

I made two batches with the six-row. Both were good. 

One thing I noticed was it came out a lot more bitter than expected. Probably a combination of adjuncts and a low mash temperature. Next time less bittering hops. Otherwise it was great. Light in body but still some maltiness from decoction. Nice aroma from the dry hops.

Most definitely worth repeating.
Title: Re: pilsner vs 6-row
Post by: Slurk on November 03, 2013, 07:58:16 PM
Well, I never followed up on this. Might as well.

I made two batches with the six-row. Both were good. 

One thing I noticed was it came out a lot more bitter than expected. Probably a combination of adjuncts and a low mash temperature. Next time less bittering hops. Otherwise it was great. Light in body but still some maltiness from decoction. Nice aroma from the dry hops.

Most definitely worth repeating.

Good to hear you liked "the experiment" :)
R, Slurk