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Ability to enter in a measured post boil volume or boil off

bougie1st

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Hey Brad - playing with BS3 and so far looks great.  Thanks for the efforts!  I'm looking forward to getting to know the system

I noticed that, in the volumes tab, the post boil volume and boil off amount still remain calculated variables only.  They cannot be updated on brewday to keep a log of actually measured numbers.  As boil off varies from brewday to brewday, I was wanting to record what I actually measured for that batch (either end of boil volume or boil off amount).  The only way that I can find to do this is to go back to the equipment profile for the recipe and adjust the boil off there - which is a long way around

Is it possible to make one of these fields (post boil volume or boil off amount) editable in the volume tab?

Thanks
 

nosco

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I was wondering the same thing. Why on earth cant you enter final boil volume?
 

brewfun

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nosco said:
I was wondering the same thing. Why on earth cant you enter final boil volume?

The Session tab is where you add all actual measurements.
 

GigaFemto

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One problem with this is that you can enter inconsistent data. The post boil volume and boil off can be calculated from other numbers that are entered. If you add the measured batch volume and add the loss to trub and chiller, then take that sum and compensate for the shrinkage due to cooling you should end up with the post boil volume. If you enter a post boil volume that is different then you have an inconsistent data set. Continuing to work backwards, adding the boiloff to the post boil volume gives you the pre boil volume, which is a value you enter. The post boil volume should be the pre boil volume minus the boiloff volume. If you are able to enter pre boil volume, post boil volume and boil off independently you could end up with a set of numbers that are mathematically inconsistent and are nonsense.

--GF
 

nosco

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The problem with that is that I no chill and use stainless fermenters, some bought and some DIY so I have no accurate way of measuring batch size. BUT if I could enter the post boil volume (which is not in the session tab) I could work out my batch size by taking away the trub loss. Its a pretty simple thing and available in basic spread sheets. Dont know why you cant do it in BS3? I would love to have an accurate boil off rate too.
 

dtapke

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A: how can you expect to get any consistency if you cannot measure your batch?

B: why can you not measure your batch size? FWIW most of my batch measuring is done by weight, not partially accurate markings on vessesl. You can get a pretty cheap scale to set your items on, tare out the weight before, then as you transfer record the weight.

C: if you have no means of measuring, how could you enter post boil volume accurately if you're not chilling seeing as temperature changes the volume?
 

Oginme

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I think this is a good suggestion.  Having a space to put post boil volume and actual trub loss would allow the program to easily calculate the actual values for boil off rate and grain absorption (assuming MT/LT losses are correct) for the user to use for updating their profiles readily.  It would also help for the program to indicate an error in the sugar balance which would signal the reliability of the readings and data.  This feature would certainly increase the ability of the user to see where things went awry in their process and give it a stronger position in versus other software available.  Plus, all the information needed is right there in the program already!
 

dtapke

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Oginme, I also think it's a good suggestion, although it would be very difficult to be accurate. Most vessel markings are relatively inaccurate, and heat is going to play into that factor greatly. are you measuring post boil volume at 99C or at 25C? in a single barrel brewhouse or larger those numbers can vary greatly in terms of volume. 4% on a 5g batch isn't much, but 4% on a 43g batch is a bit more!

Personally i'd love to see a weight/volume calculator installed so i don't have to calculate it myself (not that its hard!)

either way, both post boil volume, and weights of transfers are easy calculations that the user can make, but yeah, it would be super sweet to add them. With my kettles there's only around .6" per gallon, so it's pretty easy to be off by a decent amount. I imagine with smaller brewhouses this is easier and more accurate, and with larger brewhouses than mine (commercial) this is impractical to measure unless you've got calibrated pressure sensors in your kettle.
 

Oginme

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Actually, it is not that difficult but more of a need for the user to ensure accuracy of their readings.  I have and will continue to recommend to anyone buying a pre-marked vessel to check calibration of those markings, as many of them are pre-stamped based upon engineering drawings and actual process variance can be a large error factor.  I have aluminum stock which I use to make a calibrated 'ruler' for volume on each pot, kettle, mash tun, etc. which I own.  Either way, I would suggest a running average of several brews for use in updating your equipment profile unless it is drastically off to begin with.

Your point about when the post boil volume is measured is important.  I would use the default in BeerSmith on the 'vols' tab where the post boil is measured 'hot' and then the thermal expansion coefficient is applied to convert that volume to room or pitching temperature. 
 

dtapke

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I've often questioned the accuracy of my pre-boil volume measurements because of this as well... As i usually start heating once the element is covered, by the time my sparge is complete i'm usually close to boiling. I assume the program calculated pre-boil volume at 99C or close to it.

Does pre-boil volume mean pre-boil at boil? or pre-boil at 80C sparge temp? granted we're only talking 1% difference at those temperatures?

I'm also delighted to see upon looking there IS a weight-volume calculator in BS3, i don't recall that in BS2 so I'm glad i upgraded!
 

Oginme

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The program takes the thermal expansion value and applies this to all volumes of heated water/wort equally and regardless of temperature.  You can follow this on the 'vols' tab.  If you change the thermal expansion percentage, the program will quickly recalculate the numbers using that value.  I have my thermal expansion set at 2%, since I take collected wort near that expansion range (~145F - 155F) and take the end of boil reading after samples and whirlpool has been conducted -- maybe a little above that mark, but generally less than 1% difference in actual expansion.  Since my measurement error is generally around 1% anyway, it fits within my capabilities to measure. 

Being a process geek, I track all brew day data in a spreadsheet and use a moving average over the last 30 brews to update. I can also see a process change happening quickly and troubleshoot by following the trends.  I can see the software as already having all the information to duplicate what I do in the spreadsheet on the recipe level.  Practically all the information I use comes from the sessions tab anyway.  BTW, I do fully realize that the majority of the users do not follow the process as closely as I do, so where I see it saving me some time it would be of greater help to those less inclined to work out the figures for themselves.
 

nosco

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dtapke said:
A: how can you expect to get any consistency if you cannot measure your batch?

B: why can you not measure your batch size? FWIW most of my batch measuring is done by weight, not partially accurate markings on vessesl. You can get a pretty cheap scale to set your items on, tare out the weight before, then as you transfer record the weight.

C: if you have no means of measuring, how could you enter post boil volume accurately if you're not chilling seeing as temperature changes the volume?

A: Exactly.

B: 2 of my fermenters are made from commercial kegs so they have no markings and my SS Brewbuckets have very rough markings on the inside so you cant see them through the foam. I have scales that can weight up to 40kg for my grain but my 50lt (10 gal) kegmenter wouldnt work on it. I have my Brewbuckets on whells coz those non slip feet are apita, and also because....no. I should just be able to enter in a post boil volume.

C: I have sight glasses on my boil kettles, and rulers too. Even a slightly inaccurate batch volume, which shouldn't be too hard to compensate for temp/volume, is better than no batch volume.

I can understand that maybe it hasnt been included for the temp reason but Id be happy with a disclaimer. But then if they included it someone like me would probably complain that its not accurate for the same reason  ;D
 

dtapke

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Gotcha, yeah i use Sanke kegs to ferment and weigh on a scale similar to this :
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W52I0NU/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B00W52I0NU&pd_rd_w=lf51M&pf_rd_p=f0dedbe2-13c8-4136-a746-4398ed93cf0f&pd_rd_wg=2RTLK&pf_rd_r=SRWXW9SJ7AM5KWTREMJ6&pd_rd_r=289d4ce9-2566-11e9-a2ee-7323802ef2ad

tare out with my sanke keg and hoses attached, then pump in.

entering in a post boil volume would be nice, but also i don't really know if it's needed? I mean, determining your batch volume in the manner you're discussing would be a single, simple, subtraction problem if you know your post boil volume. if you're post boil (cooled) is 50L, and you've got 2L trub and cooler loss, than you know your batch volume is 48L.

I definitely think that your last point there rings some truth, Some people think the program is too complex already, and some people want more fields for more options. I think Brad's done a great job of tailoring enough to both ways to make each side "happy enough"

If you want more measurements, you can always log them in notes.
 
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