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Eff into Boiler -> Volume into Boiler

M

Mij

I have a quick question:

Entering my numbers into the Efficiency Details for a batch - When I enter the number for Volume into Boiler do I:

1.  Enter the volume level which is around 212*F
OR
2.  Correct for the temp difference BEFORE entering the value ( VAL * 0.96 )

For example:  I measure 56 liters of 211 *F (just before boiling) wort - Do I enter 56 liters or (56 * 0.96 = 53.76 ) 53.76 liters?
 

Wastegate

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Volume into Boiler - The amount of wort as measured in the boiler prior to the start of the boil. IMO this is the volume prior to lighting the fire. If you used the temp corrected 53 liters your final volume would be -2.25 liters short.  :eek:

Cheers
Preston
 
M

Mij

"Prior to start of the boil" - what temp would that be?  Since I fly sparge, the BK would be somewhere around 160/170*F...

I would expect 16/170*F to increase the volume of the wort by 2% or so...  Is that what BS would "expect"?

I know this is piddly stuff, I'm just trying to get the same baseline for each data point

Thanks guys!
 
M

Mij

Ok...  I'm really trying to work this out and I'm hoping you guys can double check me on this...

Terms:
  • Apparent Volume (App Vol)- The volume of wort at whatever temp it happens to be.  No adjustments made for volume expansion/contraction (boiling)
  • Actual Volume (Act Vol)- The volume of wort "corrected" back to a constant temp (like room temp).

It seems that I use the App Vol in the Equipment Setup.  I say this because I allow the 4% cooling loss (or shrinkage as a classic Seinfeld show might describe :) ) to be part of my Final Volume calculation.  Since the cooling loss is set at 4%, which I seem to recall is the "standard/average" amount, I must assume that the Boil Volume would be at the maximum level of expansion (or 212*F - Just at the start of boil)

When I go into my "Brewhouse Efficiency" setup, there is a field that is calculated already called "Planned Boil Volume".  This field seems to be based upon the "Boil Volume" field in the Equipment Screen - (I change it there and the change is reflected in the "Planned Boil Volume" field)

What I think I'm seeing is that the Planned Boil Volume = App Vol and the Volume into Boiler = App Vol

That would mean that we want to use the App Vol @ or near 211*F for the "Volume into Boiler" field in the Efficiency Details screen - right?

BS Help -> "Volume into Boiler - The amount of wort as measured in the boiler prior to the start of the boil"

Meaning @ 211*F prior to the start of the boil - my interpretation...

Does this make sense?  If not, someone shoot me...
 

Wastegate

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Brad may want to get involved with this discussion. Below are my observations/conclusions.
"Prior to start of the boil" - what temp would that be?  Since I fly sparge, the BK would be somewhere around 160/170*F...
Correct if you fly sparge or mash out. If you dont, then it will be what ever your Sacrification temps are.
I would expect 160/170*F to increase the volume of the wort by 2% or so...  Is that what BS would "expect"?
I think this is App Vol (uncorrected) because it is prior to the boil where the 4% loss after the boil occurs. Programmaticly things happen in a specific order and the 4% is later on.
It seems that I use the App Vol in the Equipment Setup.  I say this because I allow the 4% cooling loss (or shrinkage as a classic Seinfeld show might describe :) ) to be part of my Final Volume calculation.  Since the cooling loss is set at 4%, which I seem to recall is the "standard/average" amount, I must assume that the Boil Volume would be at the maximum level of expansion (or 212*F - Just at the start of boil)
That's My understanding also
When I go into my "Brewhouse Efficiency" setup, there is a field that is calculated already called "Planned Boil Volume".  This field seems to be based upon the "Boil Volume" field in the Equipment Screen - (I change it there and the change is reflected in the "Planned Boil Volume" field)
Correct
What I think I'm seeing is that the Planned Boil Volume = App Vol and the Volume into Boiler = App Vol

That would mean that we want to use the App Vol @ or near 211*F for the "Volume into Boiler" field in the Efficiency Details screen - right?
Actually the temp would be 160-170 in your case, with no temp correction.
BS Help -> "Volume into Boiler - The amount of wort as measured in the boiler prior to the start of the boil"
Meaning @ 211*F prior to the start of the boil - my interpretation...

I see it as 160-170 because it says "prior to the start of boil" meaning I just took it off the grist. Just like your previous post states
 
M

Mij

UselessBrewing said:
I see it as 160-170 because it says "prior to the start of boil" meaning I just took it off the grist.

Doesn't that mean that the volume would be "off" by about 2%?  I figure 160*F is about halfway between room temp and boiling for the point of this discussion:  Room Temp = 0% expansion; Boil Temp 4% expansion.

Let's use 50 liters (for ease of math) of measured wort in the BK at 170*F (post sparge - ready for boil)

When the BK wort gets to be about 211*F it will have an App Vol of (50 liters * 1.02 = 51) 51 liters

I would expect the "Planned Boil Volume" to be 51 liters.

If I entered the App vol measured at a temp less that 211*F, then I expect I'd be entering less "Volume into Boiler" than what should be "expected".

Thoughts?
 

Wastegate

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The math is correct, however I don't think BS takes the expansion into account "prior" to the boil. Meaning you should not either. I may be totally off base on this, but my conclusion stems from the fact that the BS recipe states for you to add water to achieve a certain boil volume which is a corrected volume IMO.

Cheers
Preston
 
M

Mij

Preston (Since this seems to be our thread now...),
I brewed today and found that my BK volume was right on target @ 212*F (corrected to 70*F) - I mean within 0.5 liters worth :)  Matched perfectly with what BS reported at the "expected boil volume".

Just thought I'd share - now if I can only fine-tune my boil off rate ;)

Mij
 
M

Mij

Ok - I'm bringing this back to life :)  Mostly because I found my "problem!"  Yea!

So, back to the basics - I've ALWAYS had just a little bit too much wort with just a little bit low OG...

When BS calculates the Boil Volume for me - the H2O numbers work out perfectly when I:
  • Assume water is around 70*F
  • Assume grain absorption rate of around 1 liter per kilogram
  • Add Mash Water (liters @ 70*F)
  • Add Sparge Water (liters @ 70*F)

The Boil Volume (in the Equipment screen) matches the H2O number calculated by hand @ 70*F - NOT @ 212*F

Here's the thing!!!  --> The Cooling Loss Pct was set to 4% (which is WRONG!)  The Cooling Loss Pct would make sense if the Boil Volume was calculated at 212*F - but it isn't, it's calculated at 70*F!  This "adds" an additional 4% of water which dilutes my OG and causes me to have "slightly" (around 1.5 to 2 liters) too much wort.

My answer is that I set the Cooling Loss Pct to 0% and my OG and volume are now perfect!  It would seem that you need to set the Cooling Loss Pct ONLY if you manually calculate the Boil Volume and set the Boil Volume at 212*F.

I can't tell you how long I've struggled with this one - well, yes, actually I can - ever since I've used BS I've always been a little low with OG and had too much wort into the fermenter...  I'm so, so happy!!!
 

Wastegate

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Interesting! Have you brewed with these settings and taken all the measurements to verify? I will have to make some adjustments and try it out. Although getting "close" is usually good enough for me when I brew.

Cheers, & Congrats on dialing in your system.

Preston
 
M

Mij

Oh yeah, I did a TON of very (well, kinda) precise measurements of gravity, volume, & temps...

Most of what was driving was trying to determine my "exact" boil-off rate; I took the pre-boil vol & grav; +30 mins; +60 mins; +90 mins (I do 90 min boils) and what I saw was the BS gave me a different post-boil OG.  Because I had the pre-boil vol & grav and the post-boil vol & grav; I was able to do the math manually and then compare that value with the BS boil off calc.  The BS boil off calc matched my manual calcs and THEN I realized that I was NOT computing the Cooling loss into the equation...

Then I changed the Equipment setting to manual, put in the pre-boil volume at the 212*F level and all the math worked out OK...

In short, if you use the Equipment setting to calculate manually AND use the volume measured at 212*F - set the Cooling loss to 4%; otherwise if it's automatic - set the Cooling loss to 0% and the numbers work out perfectly.

(Oh, and I did figure out my boil off rate - 2.25 liters/30 minutes :) )
 
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