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Roasted Barley SRM

mm658

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Just a heads-up to all, the default color for Roasted Barley in BeerSmith is probably a lot "lighter" than it should be.  BeerSmith shows 300 SRM, but in practice, it seems that 525 SRM is the norm. 

It might not make a huge difference in most applications, but I spotted at least one old thread on this forum where someone mentioned a beer turning out darker than expected, and it had RB in the grain bill.  And I know now from experience that it can make a difference.  I was formulating an Irish Red recipe with a few ounces of RB in it, shooting for a color of around 15 SRM.  Due to the difference in color of the RB ingredient, I'm going to wind up with a beer closer to 20 SRM.  So instead of an Irish Red, I guess I'm fermenting an "Irish Brown Ale."  :)  :-\

So, while you're reading this, just to be safe, you might want to adjust Roasted Barley in your ingredient list accordingly.  Word to the wise!
 

Oginme

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The actual color of roasted barley depends highly upon the malting house. 

For example: Briess Roasted Barley is usually around 325 to 350 Lovibond,
whereas Weyermann's is 375 to 450 Lovibond,
and Crisp's offering is listed at 500 to 600 Lovibond,
Muntons is listed at 500 Lov.


With any of the malts being used, it is up to the user to make sure that it reflects the specific malts/maltster being used.

 

Scott Ickes

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Oginme said:
The actual color of roasted barley depends highly upon the malting house. 

For example: Briess Roasted Barley is usually around 325 to 350 Lovibond,
whereas Weyermann's is 375 to 450 Lovibond,
and Crisp's offering is listed at 500 to 600 Lovibond,
Muntons is listed at 500 Lov.


With any of the malts being used, it is up to the user to make sure that it reflects the specific malts/maltster being used.

I agree!  I check all of the Lovibonds in Beersmith and compare them with what I'm actually going to use when designing my recipes.  Sometimes I'll choose a particular grain supplier based on the Lovibond alone, so that my color comes out as I want it to come out.
 

mm658

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Oginme said:
The actual color of roasted barley depends highly upon the malting house. 

For example: Briess Roasted Barley is usually around 325 to 350 Lovibond,
whereas Weyermann's is 375 to 450 Lovibond,
and Crisp's offering is listed at 500 to 600 Lovibond,
Muntons is listed at 500 Lov.


With any of the malts being used, it is up to the user to make sure that it reflects the specific malts/maltster being used.
Agreed, but....
None of those examples are 300, so no matter which of those maltsters offerings you purchase, the BeerSmith ingredient is too low, from the get-go.
And while it's ultimately the user's responsibility to ensure that the ingredients in their installation are accurate for what they're using, a user should be able to put some level of faith in the provided entries, IMO.  It's not optimal to 'know' what to set the color to for a particular maltster's offering when you don't necessarily know what brand(s) a given LHBS carries until you get there.  At that point (lacking the mobile version on a phone), it's too late to know if your ingredient amounts are going to provide the color you want. 
 

Scott Ickes

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mm658 said:
Oginme said:
The actual color of roasted barley depends highly upon the malting house. 

For example: Briess Roasted Barley is usually around 325 to 350 Lovibond,
whereas Weyermann's is 375 to 450 Lovibond,
and Crisp's offering is listed at 500 to 600 Lovibond,
Muntons is listed at 500 Lov.


With any of the malts being used, it is up to the user to make sure that it reflects the specific malts/maltster being used.
Agreed, but....
None of those examples are 300, so no matter which of those maltsters offerings you purchase, the BeerSmith ingredient is too low, from the get-go.
And while it's ultimately the user's responsibility to ensure that the ingredients in their installation are accurate for what they're using, a user should be able to put some level of faith in the provided entries, IMO.  It's not optimal to 'know' what to set the color to for a particular maltster's offering when you don't necessarily know what brand(s) a given LHBS carries until you get there.  At that point (lacking the mobile version on a phone), it's too late to know if your ingredient amounts are going to provide the color you want.

I'm sure that not all LHBS are the same.  However, my LHBS has a website that lists all of the grains that they carry, with all of the pertinent information about that grain.  I only need to go to there website and see what they carry and I have the Lovibond to plug into my recipe.  If they don't have a website, you can just pick up the phone and give them a call and ask what they carry.
 

Oginme

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mm658 said:
Agreed, but....
None of those examples are 300, so no matter which of those maltsters offerings you purchase, the BeerSmith ingredient is too low, from the get-go.
And while it's ultimately the user's responsibility to ensure that the ingredients in their installation are accurate for what they're using, a user should be able to put some level of faith in the provided entries, IMO.  It's not optimal to 'know' what to set the color to for a particular maltster's offering when you don't necessarily know what brand(s) a given LHBS carries until you get there.  At that point (lacking the mobile version on a phone), it's too late to know if your ingredient amounts are going to provide the color you want.

I did not to an exhaustive research on maltsters to find the one who may have a roasted barley at 300 lovibond.  If you want to, you can google to find many of the common maltsters and look them all up.  Also, realize that the malts will change from year to year.  I update the database every few months based upon the current malts that I am using.  My LHBS will let me see the analysis sheets and/or give me lot numbers if I request it.

I would also note that the equations for calculating the beer color can be fairly accurate, but are not exact.  Generally, I find my brews coming out about 2 to 5 SRM higher than prediction, even with my keeping up the data bases.  I adjust my color target based upon this and brew on and do a color check every so often when I now that I am pushing the limits (and when I really care enough to check).

My last comment:  BeerSmith is process modeling software.  It does not account for every circumstance, process, ingredient, etc. but gives a platform for the user to customize the software enough to best mimic their results.  Its ability to do so is dependent upon the quality of the user input in customizing the equipment, mash and fermentation profiles as well as the ingredients to allow the software calculations to accurately reflect the user's results.  In this aspect, I find it much easier to work with than other brewing software, spreadsheets, and calculators that I have used.

Many people who use the software are happy enough with the databases to suit their needs.  Others, such as myself, update to the latest information available.  It is a continuous process.
 

Scott Ickes

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Oginme said:
mm658 said:
Agreed, but....
None of those examples are 300, so no matter which of those maltsters offerings you purchase, the BeerSmith ingredient is too low, from the get-go.
And while it's ultimately the user's responsibility to ensure that the ingredients in their installation are accurate for what they're using, a user should be able to put some level of faith in the provided entries, IMO.  It's not optimal to 'know' what to set the color to for a particular maltster's offering when you don't necessarily know what brand(s) a given LHBS carries until you get there.  At that point (lacking the mobile version on a phone), it's too late to know if your ingredient amounts are going to provide the color you want.



I did not to an exhaustive research on maltsters to find the one who may have a roasted barley at 300 lovibond.  If you want to, you can google to find many of the common maltsters and look them all up.  Also, realize that the malts will change from year to year.  I update the database every few months based upon the current malts that I am using.  My LHBS will let me see the analysis sheets and/or give me lot numbers if I request it.

I would also note that the equations for calculating the beer color can be fairly accurate, but are not exact.  Generally, I find my brews coming out about 2 to 5 SRM higher than prediction, even with my keeping up the data bases.  I adjust my color target based upon this and brew on and do a color check every so often when I now that I am pushing the limits (and when I really care enough to check).

My last comment:  BeerSmith is process modeling software.  It does not account for every circumstance, process, ingredient, etc. but gives a platform for the user to customize the software enough to best mimic their results.  Its ability to do so is dependent upon the quality of the user input in customizing the equipment, mash and fermentation profiles as well as the ingredients to allow the software calculations to accurately reflect the user's results.  In this aspect, I find it much easier to work with than other brewing software, spreadsheets, and calculators that I have used.

Many people who use the software are happy enough with the databases to suit their needs.  Others, such as myself, update to the latest information available.  It is a continuous process.

I agree with you about process needing to be taken into account.

Two things in my process that have a big effect on my color is my boil time and my mash out technique. 

If I bring my mash up to mash out temperature by pulling grains out and bringing them up to a boil, I get a darker color than if I boil the wort only or add hot water to the mash. 

If I go to a 90 minute boil to limit DMS, instead of using a 60 minute boil, I also get a darker color.

 

nuubrew

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Hi all... I'm new here and to brewing.  I just downloaded Beersmith 2 and started playing with it, so forgive me if I'm speaking out of school... This was the most recent thread I found on the topic.

I'm wondering if the OP's "heads up" doesn't go a little deeper than just one entry in the database.  I've noticed most of the entries that come pre-installed in the software indicate the color in LOVIBOND.  Briess Organic (not their light) Roasted Barley is 300L.  Also, the caramels... 40, 60, 80, etc.... are all listed in L.  However, the software clearly indicated that it is supposed to be in SRM.  Obviously a Caramel 40 should be a 40 L.  If Beersmith is expecting units in SRM, then the number should be 53.

Which begs the question.... is it possible Lovibond and SRM are also being conflated in the software's calculations?  Can we get a positive confirmation on this?  I've dabbled in writing software and know how easy it can be to get eroneous output... especially where the numbers are so subjective as with color.

I'll admit I came upon this by accident.  While typing in a Belgian Dubbel recipe I lifted from Northern Brewer, I got a color of 37 when it should be between 10 and 17.  The culprit turned out to be BELGIAN DARK CANDI.  It has a Lovibond of 275.... BUT, it's contribution to color is FAR FAR less.

In any case, that doesn't negate the fact that many if not all of the pre-installed ingredients have the wrong units on the color.

Cheers.
 

Oginme

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The color entry for the malts should be in Lovibond.  U.S. maltsters all report color in Lovibond and even most European maltsters report their malt colors in both EBC and Lovibond.  While the entry for the malt color should have been corrected, it has remained as SRM since the release of this version of the software.  And, yes, it can be confusing.

The color algorithm BeerSmith uses is the Morey equation which ESTIMATES the resultant color of your beer as SRM based upon the malt color units in Lovibond.  As with most modeling equations, there are a number of areas that are not covered well.  Dark sugars and sugar syrups are one of these that does not fit well into the equation.



 

nuubrew

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So, shouldn't the "SRM" label in the software be corrected to say "Lovibond?"

I guess, the reason for that question is that, it's obvious "something" is wrong with the software and/or data.  Is it just the color values?  Or is it the "SRM" label (meaning, it should be "lovibond")?  I'm not questioning the error/deviation inherent in the model.  Error/deviation is inherent in ALL models.  Even as far as sugar goes, I can understand it being an exception to the model.  That's fine, but being assured the "units" of the input and output match would be nice.

Otherwise, I think the software is pretty cool.
 

Oginme

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Read what I said:  "While the entry for the malt color should have been corrected, it has remained as SRM since the release of this version of the software.  And, yes, it can be confusing."


Maybe I should have been clearer:  It should be labeled 'Lovibond' and NO it has not been changed. 

 

nuubrew

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I did read what you said.  I found it ambiguous.  Thank you for clarifying.
 

brewfun

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nuubrew said:
So, shouldn't the "SRM" label in the software be corrected to say "Lovibond?".

Lovibond & SRM are the same thing with regard to beer. Though they are different perspectives, they share the same scale where they overlap.

Lovibond is a reflective scale of the malt itself with the full spectrum range of white light.

SRM is attenuative, based on 430 nm wavelength at 1 cm depth of clear beer.
 
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