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Steeping hops time/length/temp

grathan

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Couple stats added to the steeping hops.

Temp added. Since it's possible to extract different oils at different temps while steeping it might be good to keep track of the temperature added.

Length. Be nice to know how long they were steeped. I know this is an option already on the dialog. It should format better on the recipe sheet. SO adding to the kettle on brew day is less confusing. Currently 0 minute boil additions just blend in with aroma additions listed alphabetically. I think it should be 0 minute hops, then order by steep length with longer steeps showing first and then temp_added(if specified) should override steep_length. So if I have 20 minute cascade added at 175*F and a 25 minute cascade @ 150*F, the one at 175 would override always assuming temperature dropping.
 

RiverBrewer

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I use the "note" section to record my whirlpool additions: eg.  All 20 minute hop additions were whirlpool  additions.
Yes the whirlpool data fields would be nice.

I am not too fond of way the dry hop data is laid out. # of days dry hopped doesn't really set with me because you have to look at other numbers to put this in perspective. Counting backwards from finished ferment is a pain. What is more important is the day of ferment you added it and the calendar date. So More data to add to the "note" section.
 

brewfun

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Grathan, I don't think there is enough definitive evidence for what you're asking. There is anecdotal descriptions of what lower temperature whirlpool additions bring, but I'm not aware of any objective study. If you have one, I'd love to read it. I'm always hungry for that kind of information.

There is an article on BeerSmith that describes kettle hop aroma and another discussion citing one hop farm's experience with lower temperature aromatic flashpoints. The latter was penned by a pretty high ranking BJCP judge and former officer. 

There was a very good study in 2008, by Rock Bottom Brewery, which focused on long whirlpool times and their effect on both perceived aroma and HPGC measurement. Turns out that longer whirlpools enhance aroma and DMS remained below thresholds. I can attest to this, since we whirlpool IPA and DIPA for 45 minutes. We've shortened the time on occasion, and the resulting aroma/flavor change is remarkable.

Further studies have shown that available melanoidins and wort pH play a part in retaining aromatics, and how they change through fermentation. Bamforth has been discussing hop aromas a lot lately, especially the transformative effect of fermentation. He says that nobody can predict exact aromas by either tactile smell or by oil content. It is a learned predictive skill of an experienced brewer.

I find that the strongest aromatic addition is dry hopping. Four days at >65. Some of your favorites, like Heady Topper, are double dryhopped just 4 to 5 days each addition. Jeremy at Boulevard recently confirmed that all of his dry hopped beers are given the double dosing.
 

brewfun

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RiverBrewer said:
I am not too fond of way the dry hop data is laid out. # of days dry hopped doesn't really set with me because you have to look at other numbers to put this in perspective. Counting backwards from finished ferment is a pain. What is more important is the day of ferment you added it and the calendar date. So More data to add to the "note" section.

100% agree. My request was to allow more fermentation steps. For instance: Primary. Diacetyl rest. Settling. Dryhop 1. Dryhop 2. Cold Crash 2.
 

grathan

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I didn't mean extract, though it would be easier at higher temps, so much as boil-off temperature of essential oils.

Farnesene = 79F
Myrcene = 104F
Humulene = 110.2°F
Caryophyllene =200F

From here:  http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2010/Hop_Quality-James_Altweis.pdf

Also, isomerzation is occuring still at higher temps, which should also be accounted for.


I agree on the dry hops. The recipe I am working on now needs 2 separate dry hop additions of 8 days each. Not sure exactly on why, but I am just hoping to follow the recipe. Notes seem like a good catch-all, but they are becoming a mess with data that would be better served through the software.
 

brewfun

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grathan said:
Also, isomerzation is occuring still at higher temps, which should also be accounted for.

True. This is a very recent concern. Historically, whirlpool hopping rates did not amount to much IBU contribution. I believe that future updates will address this. IBUs have some predictability, but not so with hop aroma.

Wort gravity, pH, boil vigor, kettle geometry and heat sources have all been shown to impact IBUs. Those variables are not predictive so much as they are observed. Homebrewers don't really measure IBUs; rather they observe them relative to the stated IBU level of other beers.

grathan said:
From here:  http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2010/Hop_Quality-James_Altweis.pdf
Yep, that'd be what I referenced, earlier.

This presentation is in reference to hop production and storage, not use in the kettle.

He used the term "flashpoint" which means combustibility. I've never seen dried hops burst into flame, but is is possible with freshly picked hops. Piles of fresh hops can get very warm, very fast and I believe this is part of that presentation.

The presentation also mentions hop drying and pelletization at 140 F, which is above 3/4 of the temperatures you cited. Some homebrewers have tried to correlate that with kettle temps, but that ignores the crucial oxidation issues that were discussed in the presentation. In other words, it's out of context.

In the last year, Bamforth has been asked repeatedly about whirlpool and burst hopping aroma contributions. He's been saying that there currently isn't any quantitative way to predict. He is always quick to point out that predicting hop aroma is part of the brewer's art and skill.

My own anecdote: I make a Pilsner every month that has a whirlpool addition of Hershbrucker. I get more aroma out of it by adding it right at flame out so that the boil wets it, than if I wait just 30 seconds and add it to a calm kettle before whirlpool. I can't explain why it works, it just does.
 

brewfun

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Aside from that tangent (and, BTW, isn't it cool to be asking a question that there isn't an answer to?), I can see multiple whirlpool/steeping additions being something homebrewers would want to explore. More or less a repeat countdown of the boil timer where whirlpool/steep duration is defined in the process steps and additions made along the way.
 

grathan

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I think your misinterpreting flashpoint, surely hop oil isn't as flammable as kerosene.
Here is another article referencing 'boiling point' of hop oils:

beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/


+1 on timer addition idea.
 

brewfun

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No, I didn't misinterpret "flashpoint." What he was referring to was volatility of oils. The word was misapplied and I commented subtly about it. He was referencing hop pellet manufacturing, not brewing. He was referencing all the ways hops can be degraded before they even get to the brewery and the steps taken to prevent it. Hop kilns and pelletizing rooms are very fragrant. This is because hop oils escape in the process, hence aroma. The machines cool the processed hops which presumably coalesce the oils with the added benefit of even distribution.

If your wort smells great, you're losing essential aromatics. ...NOT a cause for panic. I like the aromatics. Hop FLAVOR is best extracted on the hot side, aroma is a great bonus.

If you're going to be talking about hop oil extraction on the hot side, you may as well include the plant matter contributions of tannins, chlorophyll, plant proteins and their effects on wort quality. Bollocks. The ultimate conclusion to that is hop extracts: isomerized and oils. Super precision in additions and outcomes. Yet they don't make really good beer, by themselves.

Hop aromatics are best extracted at 60F to 70F. Colder dry hop temperatures require longer time to reach their peak. The peak of aroma will happen days 3, 4, and 5. I prefer 4 days. If it isn't aromatic enough, rack and dry hop again for four more days. Then crash chill to preserve the aromatics.
 

grathan

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I've been judging the vegetal tastes in my beers lately. Especially ones with large amounts of hopping. I'll be using extract oil for the first time this weekend. Also Planning on giving t-45 pellets a try. You buy a sack of grain and get a boatlaod of required data from the malster, and yet hops seem devoid of anything other than a guestimate of acid levels. Perhaps there is a trade-off between freshness and low-chlorophyll. I was surprised that Hop Union boasts that their new pellitizer is capable of making hops with under %2 oxygen content. Makes you wonder what a bad level would be then.

I do feel that the .pdf guy is on the right track to point out these things. Isn't that the same guy who wants people to grow hops on his farm and pay them for the finished product? Might be a little whacky.
 
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