Author Topic: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles  (Read 11559 times)

Offline mdawson9

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BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« on: June 22, 2014, 12:43:08 PM »
Hi!  Big BrewSmith fan.  Semi-novice brewer.  I'm brewing my way through Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles book and I haven't been paying enough attention to water volumes (duh).  Anyway, I need to button down my game.  So I set up a "My Equipment" profile that matches Jamil's book.  7 gallon boil, 1 gallon boil off, 5.5 gallons into fermentor, and 5 gallons to keg/bottle.  I put in his american amber ale recipe and the OG is 1.044.  The book has 1.052.  The book lists 1.044 as the pre-boil gravity though.  So clearly I have something configured wrong here. 
Any help is greatly appreciated!  I need to fix before I start developing my own recipes or things will be way off!
Thanks.

Offline grathan

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2014, 01:10:38 PM »
It would be easiest if you just exported and attached a .bsmx recipe file to your thread.

Offline mdawson9

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2014, 09:00:57 PM »
Ok.  Thanks for the suggestion.  bsmx file is attached.  Appreciate your help!

Offline grathan

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2014, 11:52:01 AM »
It looks like you went from using LME to DME and decreased the weight from 6.6# to like 5.2#. Though this seems to be reasonable when converting from LME to DME I think it's something like %75? It's been a while.

Beersmith messes the conversion up it seems? It's pretty sloppy software so I will go with it being some type of bug for now.

When I change the ingredient back to LME and the weight to 6.6 it brings the OG to 1.054 from 1.044.


I don't use extract much so maybe someone else can chime in here...

Offline mdawson9

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2014, 07:02:36 PM »
Thanks for taking a look.  I used 80% for the LME to DME conversion per the book.  When I change it back to 6.6 LME it stays 1.044.  So confused.  I think it must be the way I'm using the water volume but I'm totally confused!

Offline grathan

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2014, 11:20:45 AM »
I apologize, I altered the DME ingredient to LME without changing the potential extract.

Let's change it to liquid though (for some reason this gets our grist percentage right at 72.9%).
Then instead of Dark Liquid, use Amber Liquid which gets us our %7.7 and then the rest of the grist % should fall into line.


Now here is something weird with Beersmith. It incorrectly measures loss to cooling and trub and makes OG readings off.

But if you set your batch size to 5 gallons.
and set your trub and fermentation losses to 0.
You would still have 5 gallons to bottle and the numbers come out to 1.054ish

Offline mdawson9

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2014, 06:24:06 PM »
Thanks again for looking at this.  I get the same result as you when I move everything to 5 gallons with no losses.  Very disappointing to have to do this but oh well.  Hard to believe that all the coding that went into the functionality for the water volume steps doesn't work but I guess this is proof.  I'd love for someone to point out what I'm doing wrong so I could correct myself and have it work right.  Dang!

Offline brewfun

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2014, 06:38:20 PM »
In BeerSmith, extract recipes seem to work best when Loss to Trub & Chiller are set to zero and the batch size is the same as the post boil size minus the shrinkage volume. Post boil volume is measured hot, while batch size is cooled which accounts for the difference. 

Another of the main differences between BCS recipes and BeerSmith is how each is treating the specialty grains.  BeerSmith uses some generally accepted numbers, but leaves it to you, the user, to fine tune them for your system. BCS tells you directly what specs they used for determining their numbers, so that you can convert them to your system.

BCS is looking for 70% efficiency from all grains (p. 40). Meaning 70% of the maximum available starches and dextrines are extracted and converted into usable gravity for the recipe. BeerSmith's default for steeped grains in an extract recipe is just 15% efficiency. Other software didn't make any adjustment for the inefficiency of simple steeping and a lot of extract recipes are written that way.

Just changing the recipe from extract type to partial mash brings the estimated gravity significantly closer enough to the target of 1.052.

With all recipes closed, you can change the steeping efficiency in Options > Advanced > Steeping Efficiency. Anytime you change the global Options numbers, it is best to have all profiles and recipes closed to avoid errors. In most cases, these numbers are only applied to a recipe when it's opened.

When substituting extracts, you used a pretty common conversion number. Dried extracts do tend to be pretty consistent with their yield. Liquid extracts can be strikingly different because of the water content. Simply using your conversion factor is a good start, but don't hesitate to increase or decrease your amounts based on the gravity you want. Beer is a dynamic product that can change batch to batch and certainly system to system.

Now here is something weird with Beersmith. It incorrectly measures loss to cooling and trub and makes OG readings off.

But if you set your batch size to 5 gallons.
and set your trub and fermentation losses to 0.
You would still have 5 gallons to bottle and the numbers come out to 1.054ish

My buddy Grathan is headed in the right direction for simplifying recipes in BeerSmith. The outcome is ok and matches my advice, too. However, BeerSmith doesn't really "incorrectly measure loss" but it can create a lot of confusion if used incorrectly.

The reason that BeerSmith's "Brewhouse Efficiency" with losses to trub added won't match most recipe efficiency numbers is due to where and how they're measured. Simply, most recipes measure a batch volume as post-boil & chill, in the kettle. BeerSmith is post-boil & chill, in the fermenter.

The difference is that BeerSmith bases "Brewhouse Efficiency" on not only the percentage of goodness you get from your ingredients, but how much of that makes it to where it counts: the fermenter. Any trub left behind in the kettle or other equipment will never become beer, will it? So it's a loss and therefore an inefficiency. The real term for this is Brewhouse Yield, but we have to use BeerSmith's terms if we're going to talk about it.

If you simply leave the efficiency at 70%, you're telling BeerSmith that you're going to get more out of the ingredients in order to get more volume. Since that's unlikely, you'll have to lower your efficiency to account for lost wort.

If your system profile volumes are completely correct, you can add your actual numbers to the fermentation page. You can also just put in all of the pre and post boil numbers as "actual" while writing a recipe and see what BeerSmith says would be your "Measured Efficiency" and then use that number in your equipment profile. This will now ensure that your system matches up to the targets in BCS.


Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline grathan

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2014, 11:35:12 AM »
Brewfun, thanks for pointing out the Partial Mash and cooling differences.

If I may hijack this thread for a couple questions, I would love to wrap my head around this trub loss thing...

First though I am having troubles changing the equipment profile to test different brewhouse efficiencies.  If I click on the edit equipment profile icon on  mdawson9's recipe and change the Brewhouse Efficiency, nothing changes in the recipe. OK so I've heard you need to reload the profile into each recipe instance, but I don't see a way to even save the changes that I've made? I click on some tab called Equipmwent Wizard and nothing happens...  If I click on the Blue Floppy Disc icon and my equipment profile is also named "My Equipment" will it overwrite all of my personal settings?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 11:38:43 AM by grathan »

Offline brewfun

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2014, 07:29:14 PM »
First though I am having troubles changing the equipment profile to test different brewhouse efficiencies.  If I click on the edit equipment profile icon on  mdawson9's recipe and change the Brewhouse Efficiency, nothing changes in the recipe.

It depends on how far you change it. Extract should always be 100% efficient in an extract recipe, so, you're only talking about a very small difference from the specialty grains. In a partial mash or all grain recipe, small changes in efficiency have more impact on the numbers.

Quote
OK so I've heard you need to reload the profile into each recipe instance...

Maybe. I've not experienced that. I change numbers in both this thread's recipe as well as my own and it changes the recipe. YMMV.

Quote
but I don't see a way to even save the changes that I've made? <edit> If I click on the Blue Floppy Disc icon and my equipment profile is also named "My Equipment" will it overwrite all of my personal settings?

Each time you use the floppy icon to save a profile (Equipment, Mash, Carbonation and Fermentation profiles) a new version is saved. If you don't change the name, then you'll have multiple copies with the same name. Using "customize columns" to add the relevant differences will help you sort them.

Quote
I click on some tab called Equipmwent Wizard and nothing happens... 

Huh... Sonuvagun, that seems to be true. In recipe view the wizard isn't opening up. In the Profile tab it does work, though. Seems like a bug to report.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 08:07:46 PM by brewfun »
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline grathan

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2014, 08:33:52 PM »
Should the Est OG be moving if I change the profile Efficiency from %72 to %10? Or am I looking at it the wrong way again?

Offline grathan

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2014, 11:16:21 AM »

The reason that BeerSmith's "Brewhouse Efficiency" with losses to trub added won't match most recipe efficiency numbers is due to where and how they're measured. Simply, most recipes measure a batch volume as post-boil & chill, in the kettle. BeerSmith is post-boil & chill, in the fermenter.

The difference is that BeerSmith bases "Brewhouse Efficiency" on not only the percentage of goodness you get from your ingredients, but how much of that makes it to where it counts: the fermenter. Any trub left behind in the kettle or other equipment will never become beer, will it? So it's a loss and therefore an inefficiency. The real term for this is Brewhouse Yield, but we have to use BeerSmith's terms if we're going to talk about it.

If you simply leave the efficiency at 70%, you're telling BeerSmith that you're going to get more out of the ingredients in order to get more volume. Since that's unlikely, you'll have to lower your efficiency to account for lost wort.

If your system profile volumes are completely correct, you can add your actual numbers to the fermentation page. You can also just put in all of the pre and post boil numbers as "actual" while writing a recipe and see what BeerSmith says would be your "Measured Efficiency" and then use that number in your equipment profile. This will now ensure that your system matches up to the targets in BCS.


Maybe. I've not experienced that. I change numbers in both this thread's recipe as well as my own and it changes the recipe. YMMV.




Your saying when you alter mdawson9's recipe's Tot Efficiency the Est Original Gravity changes to match?

Offline brewfun

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2014, 06:36:14 AM »
Your saying when you alter mdawson9's recipe's Tot Efficiency the Est Original Gravity changes to match?

When the recipe is changed to Partial Mash, yes. This is when BeerSmith calculations came closer to the book.

As an Extract recipe, changing the efficiency has to be done in Options > Advanced > Steeping efficiency. BeerSmith ignores the Equipment Profile changes for extract recipes.

Remember, BCS said all grains were given 70% efficiency, but BS gives steeped extract grains only 15%
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline grathan

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2014, 08:20:49 AM »
Nevermind, I thought you were gonna be able to explain the trub loss thing.

Offline brewfun

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Re: BeerSmith/Brewing Classic Styles
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2014, 09:02:27 AM »
You changed the subject, bro. I went with it for your sake.

Measured Batch Size = Post Boil Volume - Shrinkage - Loss to Trub & Chiller. AKA, Volume Loss.
Measured Batch Size = Fermenter Volume

Brewhouse Efficiency is the percentage of total sugars available divided by the total percentage of sugars that get to the fermenter.

MAJOR DIFFERENCE: Extract gets 100% of the potential sugars into the wort. Grain does not. BeerSmith utilizes extract this way. Thus, Brewhouse Efficiency (as defined by BeerSmith) can only be discussed where a mash is involved.

In a recipe type of EXTRACT, the Brewhouse efficiency is not calculated and steeped grain is assigned a lower percentage contribution to the wort. This is why I approached it from a partial mash type where all the calculations are used.

In this thread, I tell you how to change the extract steeping percentage yield.

Still with me?

So, BHE (which should really be called Brewhouse Yield) is a calculation of total actual sugars divided by total potential sugars. Like any total sugar calculation, gravity times amount (volume or weight) give you total points as a basis for figuring BHE.

BHE = (Sg x BV) / (Pg x GW)

BHE: Brew House Efficiency
Sg: Wort Specific Gravity, post chill (or post boil)
BV: Batch Volume, as measured in the fermenter
Pg: Potential gravity of grain
GW: Grain Weight



Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

 

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