Taking special grains out of Original Gravity

[Habermeister]

So I tried Beersmith with my first batch on my Brew Magic system and didn't even come close on my numbers...spent today walking through my copious notes from yesterday and the BeerSmith session and starting to find reason why, now trying to figure out how to fix. I am trying Gordon's technique of adding my specialty grains to the end of mash/sparge thus not getting much fermentables. in a 5.5 gallon batch I have 3 lbs and right now OG is 1.052 if I take them out the OG is 1.039 which is almost what I actually got 1.031!!! So how do I show them in the recipe with the actual weight, but not adding to the OG??? I selected Not Fermentable figuring that was it, but was wrong.

Any help would be appreciated. Trying to stay the course with BeerSmith, but now understanding it's more complex than I thought...hoping that will be good in the future!

Thanks,

[Oginme]

My recommendation is to keep it simple until you get the software accurately reflecting your results.  Right now, there is no good way to separate the specialty grains from the mash except to mark them as non-fermentable and then add the steeping grains post mash.  This will then mess with the post mash part of BeerSmith until you reset the grains and may then not reflect a steeping versus a mashing extraction rate.

When you say you have 3 lbs in a 5.5 gal batch, is this just the weight of the specialty grains?  What specifically are you defining as specialty grains?

Right now, with your last batch, what was your grain bill and your wort volume after mashing? 

Is the OG reading of 1.031 your actual measurement of wort gravity after mash?  With or without the specialty grains? 

Maybe if you export the brew session of the recipe, I can look at what you are trying to do and figure out what might be changed.

[Habermeister]

My recommendation is to keep it simple until you get the software accurately reflecting your results.  Right now, there is no good way to separate the specialty grains from the mash except to mark them as non-fermentable and then add the steeping grains post mash.  This will then mess with the post mash part of BeerSmith until you reset the grains and may then not reflect a steeping versus a mashing extraction rate.

When you say you have 3 lbs in a 5.5 gal batch, is this just the weight of the specialty grains?  What specifically are you defining as specialty grains?

Right now, with your last batch, what was your grain bill and your wort volume after mashing? 

Is the OG reading of 1.031 your actual measurement of wort gravity after mash?  With or without the specialty grains? 

Maybe if you export the brew session of the recipe, I can look at what you are trying to do and figure out what might be changed.

Hey thanks for getting back to me...in playing with the software today, I found if I set the Potential to 1.000 it does not add to the OG  When I did this it showed my base grain projected as hitting very close to what I actually got. With a few more pounds of that Beersmith is projecting almost dead on what I was expecting (and what the base grain bill was that I originally projected)

As for the rest of your questions, here's what I was doing...

I was brewing a Porter. My grain bill was 8 lbs of Marris Otter, 1 lbs of Brown, 1 lbs of Chrystal and 1 lbs of Chocolate. (oh yeah Rice Hulls as well n the mash) I was considering everything but the Marris Otter a steeping/specialty therefore they were the 3 lbs in a 5.5 gal batch

The wort volume after mashing was just under 7.5 gallons based on what BeerSmith said to collect.

Is the OG reading of 1.031 your actual measurement of wort gravity after mash? Yes with the specialty grains added at mash out and sparge.

If you think you can tell more from an export and would be willing to look at for me, I would appreciate it!

Thanks!

[Oginme]

So it would seem as though your real problem is with your expected efficiency vs your actual efficiency.  What you are attempting to do is to trick the program into giving you the result you want instead of working the program parameters to have the program mimic what you actually achieved.

In terms of your mash profile, that I would recommend you stick with.  Very little in the mash profile relates to the results you achieved and it has more of an effect on the expected FG rather than OG.  I would start by making sure your volumes achieved are close enough to the predicted volumes from BeerSmith.  Now look at the recipe and BeerSmith will have calculated your actual mash and brew house efficiency.  Adjust your equipment profile according to these numbers for brew house efficiency.

If you are steeping your specialty grains, then BeerSmith is indeed expecting more extraction from the mashed grains versus the steeped grains you added.  You are probably only getting about 15% to 17% of the potential that you would get by mashing them.

I can make better recommendations if you do export and post the recipe.  It is easier than trying to guess your equipment profile and losses to figure out what else you can do to get the program mimicking your process better.

[Habermeister]

So it would seem as though your real problem is with your expected efficiency vs your actual efficiency.  What you are attempting to do is to trick the program into giving you the result you want instead of working the program parameters to have the program mimic what you actually achieved.

In terms of your mash profile, that I would recommend you stick with.  Very little in the mash profile relates to the results you achieved and it has more of an effect on the expected FG rather than OG.  I would start by making sure your volumes achieved are close enough to the predicted volumes from BeerSmith.  Now look at the recipe and BeerSmith will have calculated your actual mash and brew house efficiency.  Adjust your equipment profile according to these numbers for brew house efficiency.

If you are steeping your specialty grains, then BeerSmith is indeed expecting more extraction from the mashed grains versus the steeped grains you added.  You are probably only getting about 15% to 17% of the potential that you would get by mashing them.

I can make better recommendations if you do export and post the recipe.  It is easier than trying to guess your equipment profile and losses to figure out what else you can do to get the program mimicking your process better.

Thanks again for writing back...I am not sure what you by I am trying to fool the software, I did not do that, but my first batch expected to be 1.052 came in at 1.031. My expected efficiency was 70 and this outcome would put me at 42. When I took my specialty grains off to see what would happen and put my base malt back to what I thought in the first place I got 1.048. I was just trying to figure out a way to represent the specialty grains basically being steeped in the sparge, and still do not think I know how, but I am still open to what I am doing wrong...but before we go any further I exported the recipe. Where should I post it for you?

Thanks again!

Dave

[Oginme]

You can attach the recipe to your next message in this thread.  When you do a reply, there will be a section to add attachments below the message box.

It sounds like you got really poor efficiency.  Changing the potential of your specialty grains will not fix this or make the program reflect what you actually achieved on a consistent basis.  The first thing to do is investigate why you got such poor efficiency from your system.  The most probable cause is a very poor crush of your grains.  Also, since you were so very high in gravity in your sparge, I would also suspect poor drainage from your mash tun.

[Habermeister]

You can attach the recipe to your next message in this thread.  When you do a reply, there will be a section to add attachments below the message box.

It sounds like you got really poor efficiency.  Changing the potential of your specialty grains will not fix this or make the program reflect what you actually achieved on a consistent basis.  The first thing to do is investigate why you got such poor efficiency from your system.  The most probable cause is a very poor crush of your grains.  Also, since you were so very high in gravity in your sparge, I would also suspect poor drainage from your mash tun.

Based on what I have seen I crush at .070. After talking with a few folks, sounds like I may be should be .050 - .060? Any way attached is the export of my recipe.

Thanks again for all your help!

[Oginme]

I think you hit upon the issue.  Your gap is way too open for a lot of grains and this is affecting your extraction/efficiency.

I don't have a roller mill, but a corona-style mill and do BIAB, so I can crush much finer.  Check around and question some people who have similar type mills to your to find out what they use for a gap setting. 

Once you chase that down, then you can look again at your numbers to see where your efficiency ends up and revise your equipment profile to reflect what you actually achieve.  This adjustment will get BeerSmith predicting closer to where you end up.

[Habermeister]

I think you hit upon the issue.  Your gap is way too open for a lot of grains and this is affecting your extraction/efficiency.

I don't have a roller mill, but a corona-style mill and do BIAB, so I can crush much finer.  Check around and question some people who have similar type mills to your to find out what they use for a gap setting. 

Once you chase that down, then you can look again at your numbers to see where your efficiency ends up and revise your equipment profile to reflect what you actually achieve.  This adjustment will get BeerSmith predicting closer to where you end up.

Yeah for sure! Glad I used the software and kept notes, found several things that probably contributed and sure that it will get better and better as I get use to the system.

Thanks again!!!