Author Topic: Water Profile Matching issues  (Read 4509 times)

Offline Helmo Alkou

  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Brew on!
Water Profile Matching issues
« on: July 14, 2018, 04:19:52 PM »
A little help understanding the new BS water profile, please. When I select a water profile to match a style, Black Full in this case, why does the Water Analysis at the bottom show the wrong water color profile? And, not with this recipe, but I've had the Sulfate/Chloride ratio showing the wrong balance as well. I know how to make manual adjustments but then what would be the point of "matching a profile" other than give you a starting point? Is this normal? Thanks! (See attached)

Offline bougie1st

  • BeerSmith Master Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 76
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2018, 06:06:37 PM »
The SRM referred to in the name is just the name of the water profile and completely editable.

The SRM down the bottom will be the estimated range that the water is best for, using BS3's internal calculations (which I am, of course, not privy to). 

If you go to the water profile in Ingredients, you'll see a similar analysis for that profile.  Mine also says the water colour range is 11-16 SRM for both a stout (in the recipe water tab) and in the ingredient profile for Bru'n water - black full

I suspect the differences come about due to the way the water additions, etc are calculated.  Brad has already stated that there are differences in the way BS3 calculates some of the water additions compared to Bru'n water (eg the acid additions).

You can always adjust the water ingredient profile to make it hit the stated SRM in the name if you wish

FWIW - I used BS3's water profile function for the first time for a stout recently.  My pH came in perfectly, which I've actually not found with Bru'n water (I seem to be in the minority for this though).  I normally have to aim for 5.2 to hit 5.4 with Bru'n.

Offline Helmo Alkou

  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Brew on!
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2018, 01:20:05 PM »
I didn't know if others were seeing the same thing or just me. It's a little confusing. I've only brewed once with BS3 and my PH was spot on with the water profile I picked w/o making manual adjustments. It's still sitting in the fermentor though.

I've always had really good luck with BS calculations and for that reason never spent a lot of time with Bru'n Water. When I compared this recipe against the Bru'n Water spreadsheet the numbers were really close except for bicarbonate, alkalinity. This may the difference Brad was talking about in comparing PH calculations.

Thanks for your response!

Offline Oginme

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3150
  • Goats, guitars, and a home brew; Life is good!
    • Longvu LaManchas
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 07:52:44 AM »
I am probably going to say some things here that may be controversial to those people who swear by the alkalinity/wort color water adjustment methods.

The idea of this method is that in order to compensate for the acidity of toasted/roasted malts needed to attain darker colors, you need to have a certain amount of alkalinity.  This is a common form of process control called a 'feed-forward' loop, where you know approximately where the process will take you and try to compensate for that impact before it actually occurs.

I agree in principle with this approach as a method of anticipating where your mash pH will turn out and trying to preempt a lower than optimal mash pH.  If you use a consistent source of malts which are always predictable in behavior and if you understand how your process behaves with regard to pH and wort color, then this works fine.

However, when you look at the malt acidity values of various roasted malts as plotted by D. M. Riffe based upon data from Kai Troister, this relationship of color and malt acidity, while clustered around the regression line, does not necessarily follow neatly all the other data from crystal malts and base malts.  If you look at the actual relationship of beer color to distilled water pH at a grist ratio of 3 L/Kg as plotted by Kai Troister at http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Beer_color,_alkalinity_and_mash_pH, you will see that there is no simple formula which can account for all the variability presented in various formulations of base/crystal/roasted malt combinations and their corresponding pH in distilled water.  (see plot below). This is actually one of the conclusions that Kai made from his study

When you pick a particular water profile to use based upon color and then apply a specific malt bill to that profile, the actual results may not be as neat as you would like it to be and the resultant range of beer color predicted may not match the profile you chose (as bougie1st pointed out), but the end result is 'did you get the mash pH you wanted and did you make good beer'.  The other way of looking at this should be that if you are within 0.1 pH unit of your target, you are within the scatter of results Kai has tested and you should not worry too much about it unless you consistently find yourself higher or lower than predicted values.  In those cases, take the offset and move your target for your chosen model accordingly to get closer to the actual result you want.





Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline Helmo Alkou

  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Brew on!
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2018, 10:31:51 AM »
Excellent! Thank you!

Offline TK2fast

  • BeerSmith New Brewer
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2019, 06:17:26 AM »
Brewing a Porter and BS3 had the residual alkalinity far in the negative range. Should have been way positive for a dark beer. Have had noting but issues using BS3 water calcs. They are just wrong and BS3 will not respond to emails. I have been full grain brewing for many years and use Palmer's spreadsheet. BS3 is nowhere near what I get from Palmer's.
I would not rely on BS3 water calcs!!

Offline Oginme

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3150
  • Goats, guitars, and a home brew; Life is good!
    • Longvu LaManchas
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2019, 07:16:00 AM »
I have had very good results with the water tool and tab in BeerSmith.  Maybe if you export your porter recipe as a .bsmx file and post it here we can see just what is going on for you.

Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline Wtelkins

  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
Water Profile vs Water ingredients use different math
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2019, 12:48:08 PM »
I have had good results with the "water profile tool" and have found it's math appears to be accurate based on experiments with my iDip water analysis kit.
It does NOT appear that the "water" tab within a recipe is working correctly.

I've attached 2 screenshots of using the exact same salt additions and quantities of the same water.
The math behind both is wildly different.

Because I have the iDip water analysis kit and have done some experiments I trust the Water Profile tool.
So what is the "water" tab doing????

Thanks,


Offline Oginme

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3150
  • Goats, guitars, and a home brew; Life is good!
    • Longvu LaManchas
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2019, 01:17:35 PM »
So, as I look at your screen shots, I can draw the following:

(1) you are using the water profile tool to match a profile using all the water needed for the recipe, (40.41 liters),
(2) in the water tab in the recipe, you have added the same amounts of water agents into the tab as mash adds,
(3) these water agent amount are then applied to just the mash water (20 liters),
(4) the ion values look to be different because you are applying the mineral salts additions for 40.41 liters to 20 liters.

You are expecting these to be the same? 

Next, you are adding two sources of water.  There is no way for the program to know where each water is being used, so it defaults to using the larger of the water additions (Oceanside CA) as the basis for calculating your ending mineral values.

So, you want to use the water profile tool to determine the base mineral/salt composition of the mixture WITHOUT any water salt additions.  Save this with some clever name such as 'Mixed Water - 30L Oceanside/ 10L Distilled and then use this for your base water in your recipe.  Now, if you set the water tab for that water (40.41 liters) and then have the program match your desired water profile 'EXP 1 IPA Water' then the program will calculate out the needed salts to match that profile.  Plus it will divide them up into mash and sparge additions.  If you so desire, then you can edit the water agent amounts to something a bit easier to measure out.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 01:58:10 PM by Oginme »
Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline Wtelkins

  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2019, 01:48:37 PM »
Thanks Oginme,
That's was very helpful and your assumptions are correct. I read Palmer's Water book and got clear that you adjust salts for the mash in order to get the RA down and PH in line, but I wasn't clear on what water you use for sparge (other than to just keep the sparge runnings below 5.8ph). So I decided to try just adjusting the whole batch. Oceanside tap water doesn't taste good ad adjusting with salts appears to help that problem, so I figure I'll sparge with the same water too.

Brad,
Some feedback if you are listening: I submit that some verbiage could be added to create more clarity within the "water" tab as to how to use this tool properly and how it is applying the salts and various added waters. It may seem obvious when you understand it, but the learning curve could be shortened and, like brewing with proper water can make a good beer great, that extra touch of communication could make this good tool great:)

Thanks!

Offline Oginme

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3150
  • Goats, guitars, and a home brew; Life is good!
    • Longvu LaManchas
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2019, 02:08:10 PM »
Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline BOB357

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 713
  • Beer is my bucket list!
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2019, 03:55:11 PM »
In BS3, add your source water as the final step on the design page. Once you've done this, go to the water page and choose a water profile. The software will add the needed salts to your recipe. Next, go to the mash page and adjust mash pH as needed. The brewing salts and acid additions will show up as part of your recipe on the design page.
There's really no need to bother with the water profile tool unless you want to enter a new profile or adjust an existing one.

Prior to doing any pH adjustment on the mash page, you should read this: http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,20449.0.html

I've found that adjusting the Lactic Acid 88% in misc., ingredients to 135% gets me very close to actual mash pH.
Bob

Offline Wtelkins

  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2019, 02:00:15 PM »
So what I'm finding is that instead of building a water profile from distilled water only. I'm building my profiles using a 30/70 or 60/40 mix of my tap water with RO water so I am not using so many salts.
When I save this as a water profile and add it to the design page Beersmith 3 does not know/remember that the water profile is initially started by blending two waters. Ideally when I add the target water to the design page Beersmith 3 would remember the way I created that water in the water profile tool and add the proper volume of RO and Tap water.
So, now, when it adds the salts to the water page it doesn't include the two volumes of blended water that it took to create the profile and I am left trying to remember what the water blend was.

Is the idea just that no one is actually blending/diluting water? Seems like that should be a critical part of saving a new target water profile...

Also, thanks for the hint on the Mash page, I had totally missed that I could actually adjust the target mash PH for the purpose of adjusting the RA calculation!!

Offline Oginme

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3150
  • Goats, guitars, and a home brew; Life is good!
    • Longvu LaManchas
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2019, 04:29:11 PM »
In its present form, BeerSmith uses the preset mixture as a single source.  You can get around this by going to the water tab in your recipe and adding both of the water sources you are using:  tap water and distilled water.  Then adjust the amounts to match the balance between the two you want for that recipe. Now you can use the water adjustment in the same tab to add any salts you may need to hit your specific desired profile, or not as you may prefer.
Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline Wtelkins

  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
Re: Water Profile Matching issues
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2019, 11:39:18 PM »
Ok, so I think you mean I need to start with adding the TWO source waters to the design page as my final step, correct?

Based on the feedback and monkeying with it for a couple hours I figured out SOME the tricks as noted here: (Though there are still mysterious volume parameters that look important but appear unconnected to anything else)
1. You have to create and save a water profile. I've learned so far that you don't pre-save any of the salts to the profile, unless it's based purely on Distilled water, because those additions are for specific volumes and appear to mess up the calculations. When saving a new profile you can fill in the volume of water, but actually, I can't really tell what this parameter actually effects.
2. You DO NOT add the target profile water to the Design Tab (unless it's for a single source water with salt additions built in), instead you have to add the blended source waters that make up your target profile to the Design Tab. To do this, go out to the water "ingredients" page to find and review the notes on what blends you made the target water with. Then add those blends back to the Water tab in your recipe.
3. At this point there should be no salts added due to water profiles. From here, in the Water tab, you select the "Match a Target Profile" button on the mid right to open the match profile window.
4. Next you have to find the text "Choose Target Profile" in the window (it looks like all the other text but its actually a button, so look for the icon of a water droplet and hover with your mouse to find it).
5. When the window opens to select your target water of choice. I'd say make sure the volume amount in the lower left matches the Mash volume you plan to use, BUT, the salt additions appear to calculate correctly between mash and sparge regardless what that is set to. So I have to conclude setting that volume parameter does absolutely nothing.
6. Next check the box for "exclude chalk", because in my opinion its difficult to make soluble and is not a useful salt (I'll be happy for someone to educate me better on that...).
7. Now Viola, the mash and sparge salts are divided proportionally to make the water concentrations correct.
8. If you are like me, and just want to adjust all the salts in one batch of water before separating and heating your strike water, you now must add all the salt fractions for mash and sparge back together and add to your total water volume. (I request Brad add a selection for adjusting all the water at once so I don't have to do more math...)

Anyone see issues with what I've documented so far?
If you can clarify how the pre-saved salt additions are supposed to be used, and if the software adjusts when different volumes are used that would be great!

 

modification