Crystal/Dark Malts - Not Fermentable Checkbox

How many of you all out there are unchecking this box when building recipes using malts darker than say 100 and/or crystal malts?

I missed some targets on a big beers recently, stouts, and went back in and unchecked the boxes and low and behold, my numbers in the software were much closer.

And, if they aren't really fermentable, why don't they come this way when you install the software? Like dextrine malt, it isn't fermentable so why doesn't it have that box already checked? Not slamming the software, just curious if there's another reason!

Thanks!

Crystal and Caramel malts are pre-converted to create sugars which will react with the proteins during kilning or roasting to give the various caramel, toffee, and dark fruit flavors.  They do contain fermentable sugars.  I checked all those malts in my copy of BS3 and none of them are checked as being non-fermentable.

Dextrine malts also contain fermentable sugars, just not to a large extent.  If steeped, they have a very slight sweet flavor.  When you mash dextrine malts, they produce more sugars as the enzymes will break down some of the dextrines into smaller sugars.

As to why they are checked as non-fermentable in your copy, I have no idea.

Sorry, my post should have read "How many ARE checking the 'Not Fermentable" box.

There's so much conflicting information out there about Crystal malt! Some say they can ferment, some say they cannot.

What about dark grains, for example, roasted barley, black patent, chocolate, carafa 1-3, etc. Should those be checked 'Not Fermentable'?

Thanks!

I don't have any grains checked as non-fermentable.  I do have lactose checked.  Where is the conflicting information coming from?  The maltsters publish the potential or yield of every grain, including the specialty grains indicating that they do have some extractable sugars.  What I can say is that I have always marked them as fermentable and in 6 years of brewing over 140 recipes it has never calculated a gravity which is way off from my actual results.  These days, I am always within a couple of points of my target.

Well, I read this, which is what started me on my journey of confusion:

https://www.defalcos.com/brewing-information/using-grains.html

With them being a supplier, I'd hope/figure they'd have correct information!

Then I read on other areas where these 'unfermentable' grains have had the enzymes killed BUT the starch is still fermentable with the addition of amylase, which is found in the fermentable grains and, depending on the diastatic power of the grains you are using, there should be enough enzyme left to share with the 'unfermentable' grain, providing you actually use it in the mash, to convert their starches to sugar.

I am going with option 2 - as long as the grain is mashed and there's enough diastatic power in the in the grains, that the conversion will happen!

WOW!  What a site for misinformation.  I think that they confused the grains which are required to be mashed with grains that are pre-converted and can be steeped to release the sugars.  Their comment about "rendering them "inedible" to most beer yeasts" versus base grains (the ones that they label as fermentable) is totally off base.  All of yeasts consume sugars.

A grain that has been malted has had some of the proteins broken down to make the starches more accessible and the enzymes made available to act upon the starches in the grain.  The act of mashing allows the enzymes to reduce the starches which become soluble to sugars: mainly maltose, but also some dextrins and some simple sugars.  The yeast consumes these sugars as their food for growth and sustenance.

Specialty malts (caramel, crystal, biscuit, chocolate, black) are made by taking the malted grains and processing them further in a kiln or roaster.  The base malts from above are removed when they still contain a fair amount of moisture and commonly are held at 145F to 160F for a period of time to allow the enzymes to convert the starches to sugars within the barley kernel.  The temperature can then be raised to allow these sugars to caramelize and/or interact with the proteins to create more complex flavors.  Not all the sugars are affected and if you taste some of these malts, you can taste the sweetness along with the other flavors which have developed.  I am a big fan of chewing on malts to learn the flavors contained within.  I also have made steeped specialty grain "teas" to get a sense for the extracted flavors.

A good read, though a bit in depth, is "Malt" by John Mallett.  Simpler read which may be of value is "How to Brew" by John Palmer.

Oginme said:

WOW!  What a site for misinformation.  I think that they confused the grains which are required to be mashed with grains that are pre-converted and can be steeped to release the sugars.  Their comment about "rendering them "inedible" to most beer yeasts" versus base grains (the ones that they label as fermentable) is totally off base.  All of yeasts consume sugars.

A good read, though a bit in depth, is "Malt" by John Mallett.  Simpler read which may be of value is "How to Brew" by John Palmer.

Click to expand...

OK. So yeah, yeah, see, all that you said up there is what I thought I had always known. Then someone in a forum says something about steeping dark grains to avoid the bitterness (I LOVE dark beers and brew them almost exclusively) and then someone else says they always steep their dark grains and add at the end of the boil because it doesn't matter because they are dark and don't contribute sugar because dark grains are unfermentable and then I get all 'WHAT?' and blam!! I think there's been some kind of revolution in how things work and I start reading and sure enough, there's information out there about dark grains not being fermentable and think I need to monkey with everything.... Thank you so much for your information and time. I really appreciate it.

As far as why my numbers were not adding up, like I said in my original post, I am still digging on that one. I did update to BS 3 recently and imported the data from BS 2, so maybe that has something to do with it? I don't know. Honestly, until this last batch, I stopped checking gravity, except for OG and FG, figuring it was just going to be what it was and since I had such consistent results, why bother! I recently got back into brewing and upped my geek level a bit by modifying the water profiles after noticing my IPA wasn't very bitter despite hopping the crap out of it early in the boil. Turns out my water profile is good for malty beers, which I almost always make, but not so good for an IPA. Might explain why my ESB was off a bit too! Time to close up shop and retool...

I've read Palmer's book, albeit a piece at a time and usually PRN, a fair number of times and now have Malt on the Christmas list. Thank you again for the input! I really appreciate it! Cheers!

I fully understand.  Part of the issue is different processes being used by people and they usually use whatever little information they can to justify their position.  Mashing, cold steep, topping off the mash with dark grains really comes down to a personal preference.  Since most dark grains contribute only a very little bit of sugars and they are usually used in smaller volumes, most of the loss of extractable sugars is not noticed much.  So it ends up being a taste preference brought about by a difference in process more than anything else.

Good luck with your brewing!