Author Topic: Whirpool settings unclear  (Read 1515 times)

Offline anak85

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Whirpool settings unclear
« on: April 09, 2021, 08:10:02 AM »
Hi there,

I set my recipe up and added hops during boil and then further hops for a whirlpool addition for 30 minutes at 80?C.

When I change the temp of the whirlpool by adjusting it in the hops settings option, the IBU changes. But why doesn't the IBU of the boil addition change automatically as well? If I boil for 60 or 90 minutes should make a difference for the bittering hops.

Or is there somewhere else in the recipe builder, that I need to set the whirlpool temp and time which I have overlooked?

Regards
Phillip from Germany

Offline BOB357

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2021, 09:31:53 AM »
In the equipment profile there's a box you check to "Estimate Boil Hop Util in Whirlpool".
Bob

Offline anak85

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2021, 01:10:30 PM »
In the equipment profile there's a box you check to "Estimate Boil Hop Util in Whirlpool".

It is checked but whether I set 1h or 1minute of whirpool, the boil additions are not affected. That makes no sense as these aren't simply removed after the 60 minute boil.

Offline Oginme

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2021, 01:35:03 PM »
At 60 minutes into the boil, you have essentially exhausted the vast majority of the alpha acids which can be isomerized.  The additional amount of IBU from isomerization after the 60 minutes is in the hundredths column (if not less) for the additional time of whirlpooling. 

The bigger impact is on the hops which are added late in the boil -- under 20 minutes -- where significant amount of isomerization can still occur.
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Offline anak85

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2021, 01:54:55 PM »
At 60 minutes into the boil, you have essentially exhausted the vast majority of the alpha acids which can be isomerized.  The additional amount of IBU from isomerization after the 60 minutes is in the hundredths column (if not less) for the additional time of whirlpooling. 

The bigger impact is on the hops which are added late in the boil -- under 20 minutes -- where significant amount of isomerization can still occur.

Yep, my post was only an example. But also the 10 minute additions aren't changed when I set my whirlpool hops to 60 minutes at 95?C.

So that is why I am wondering if I need to set the whirlpool somewhere else so the boil hops are adjusted accoringly as well...

Offline anak85

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2021, 02:18:26 AM »
any thoughts?

Offline brewfun

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2021, 11:00:03 AM »
any thoughts?

Don't overthink it. It takes a significant amount of whirlpool time to gain just a few IBUs on paper, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Paying attention to hop oil percentages and freshness pay much bigger dividends. IBUs are all too often used as a proxy for flavor and aroma, but there is very little correlation.

In your equipment profile, besides checking the utilization box, you'll need to specify the WP time. The extended time will be added to the IBU calculation, but it isn't linear. A big 10 minute addition will not isomerize as much in the WP as it does in the boil. You might see an increase of 1 IBU because a WP isn't as vigorous as the boil. Ironically, after a certain amount of time, you're breaking as many isomers as you're creating.

IBUs are a very narrow definition of hop use, created to balance lighter lager styles. The models we have for calculating them are now decades old, but still the best we have. IBUs are based on a lab measurement and that is still the best way to know what you have. There is ongoing research into creating new scales for measuring hop impact based on much wider data sets than just isomers.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 11:02:09 AM by brewfun »
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Offline anak85

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2021, 11:30:42 AM »
any thoughts?

Don't overthink it. It takes a significant amount of whirlpool time to gain just a few IBUs on paper, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Paying attention to hop oil percentages and freshness pay much bigger dividends. IBUs are all too often used as a proxy for flavor and aroma, but there is very little correlation.

In your equipment profile, besides checking the utilization box, you'll need to specify the WP time. The extended time will be added to the IBU calculation, but it isn't linear. A big 10 minute addition will not isomerize as much in the WP as it does in the boil. You might see an increase of 1 IBU because a WP isn't as vigorous as the boil. Ironically, after a certain amount of time, you're breaking as many isomers as you're creating.

IBUs are a very narrow definition of hop use, created to balance lighter lager styles. The models we have for calculating them are now decades old, but still the best we have. IBUs are based on a lab measurement and that is still the best way to know what you have. There is ongoing research into creating new scales for measuring hop impact based on much wider data sets than just isomers.

I get where you are coming from but I am not overthinking or even trying to see if the Whirpool bitterness is correct or not.

Here an example. The whirpool gives me a certain IBU but the 0 minute addition doesn't? That is just not correct as I do not remove the 0 minute addition.


Offline Oginme

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2021, 12:05:26 PM »
Go back up and read the post from BOB357. 

We talk about setting the whirlpool time in the EQUIPMENT PROFILE to adjust the carry-over IBU increase from the boil hop additions.

I have attached screen shots from the recipe I made this morning with my standard equipment profile with a 10 minute whirlpool time set in the equipment profile, another with the profile set for a 0 minute whirlpool time, and one set for a 30 minute whirlpool time.  Accordingly, the IBU for the 5 minute hop addition goes from 18.7 to 18.3 to 18.9 respectively for the 60-minute addition.  Likewise, the 5-minute additions move from a target of 8.5 to 3.9 to 10.9 respectively.  IF YOUR EQUIPMENT PROFILE IS SET FOR A 0 MINUTE WHIRLPOOL YOU WILL NOT GET ANY IBU CALCULATED FROM A 0 MINUTE HOP ADDITION!
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Offline Oginme

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2021, 12:25:16 PM »
Screen shots did not load with that last one.  Here they are:

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Offline anak85

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2021, 12:28:49 PM »
Go back up and read the post from BOB357. 

We talk about setting the whirlpool time in the EQUIPMENT PROFILE to adjust the carry-over IBU increase from the boil hop additions.

I have attached screen shots from the recipe I made this morning with my standard equipment profile with a 10 minute whirlpool time set in the equipment profile, another with the profile set for a 0 minute whirlpool time, and one set for a 30 minute whirlpool time.  Accordingly, the IBU for the 5 minute hop addition goes from 18.7 to 18.3 to 18.9 respectively for the 60-minute addition.  Likewise, the 5-minute additions move from a target of 8.5 to 3.9 to 10.9 respectively.  IF YOUR EQUIPMENT PROFILE IS SET FOR A 0 MINUTE WHIRLPOOL YOU WILL NOT GET ANY IBU CALCULATED FROM A 0 MINUTE HOP ADDITION!

Ahh, thanks. I overlooked that post.

The standard whirpool temp seems set at 90,2?C for the boil additions. When I change the whirlpool temp in the whirlpool hops, it doesn't affect the 0 Minute addition.

How can I change the standard whirlpool temp for a recipe?

Offline Oginme

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2021, 12:52:46 PM »
Once again, the carryover of IBU from boil additions only responds to the setting for time in the equipment profile.  This does not take into account temperature, because it is assumed to start at boil temperature.  I think, I have not checked the latest version, that it estimates the utilization for the additional steep at a boil time addition of half the time the steep is set for.  So for instance, in my situation I have the whirlpool/steep time set for 10 minutes and the program adds another 5 minutes of boil utilization to the time the boil hops are added.  Thus a 0-minute addition has the utilization as if it were added 5-minutes before the end of the boil, my 5-minute additions give the IBU estimation as if they were added at 10 minutes before the end of the boil, 60-minute additions are calculated based upon 65 minutes of contact, etc.

This may be wrong, as it was the model for BS2 and there was no indication that it changed when the software was updated.  Whirlpool additions were modified but the estimation of boil hops I do not believe were changed.
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Offline anak85

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Re: Whirpool settings unclear
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2021, 12:59:52 PM »
Once again, the carryover of IBU from boil additions only responds to the setting for time in the equipment profile.  This does not take into account temperature, because it is assumed to start at boil temperature.  I think, I have not checked the latest version, that it estimates the utilization for the additional steep at a boil time addition of half the time the steep is set for.  So for instance, in my situation I have the whirlpool/steep time set for 10 minutes and the program adds another 5 minutes of boil utilization to the time the boil hops are added.  Thus a 0-minute addition has the utilization as if it were added 5-minutes before the end of the boil, my 5-minute additions give the IBU estimation as if they were added at 10 minutes before the end of the boil, 60-minute additions are calculated based upon 65 minutes of contact, etc.

This may be wrong, as it was the model for BS2 and there was no indication that it changed when the software was updated.  Whirlpool additions were modified but the estimation of boil hops I do not believe were changed.

Ok, thanks!

 

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