Author Topic: What is bad about long wort cooling off period?  (Read 31762 times)

Offline jomebrew

  • Global Moderator
  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1052
    • Jomebrew
Re: What is bad about long wort cooling off period?
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 09:50:57 AM »
I have seen many many times people taste the wort from the stirring spoon.  Take gravity samples and dump them back in.   


Guilty and guilty (back into boiling wort that is).  But I am not worried about mouth bacteria (See Mythbusters on Double Dipping).  I prefer to mitigate risks of spoilage.  I have tasted hundreds of homebrew working in competitions and being in clubs.  If you question infections, you should participate in both.  Did they come from slowly cooled wort?  Dunno.  Can I mitigate risk?  Yes. Rapidly cooling wort is one.  I am happy to take this one on faith.  I encourage you to take your own path and do your own experiments.   

Occasionally someone posts an intriguing question like this.    So, I often start investigating academic and industry research.   I am interested to see if there is really anything out there.  This subject is pretty well covered though I lost interest before digging up specifics about experiments.  The biology was convincing enough.

Thanks for the interesting subject to investigate.

Offline bucker

  • BeerSmith New Brewer
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
Re: What is bad about long wort cooling off period?
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2013, 04:51:40 PM »
Although new to all of this, the cost of a wort cooler ($50 on the lowish end) more than pays for itself if it even saves 2 batches over the course of a lifetime of brewing.

Offline Shannon

  • Brewmaster at C&S Brewery & Bistro
  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 6
  • B4 BS Silver Medal winning BEER in our 1st year!
Re: What is bad about long wort cooling off period?
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2013, 01:19:10 AM »
Transferring to secondary will not improve clarity.

Clarity is improved by 3 things :

1. Time settle still without being disturbed. 
2. Fining agents
3. Filtering
We find this statement contrary to itself..."Clarity is improved by 1. Time settle still without being disturbed" Now I'm sorry but our process includes a Secondary for every beer we make, even the No-Boil Munton's MexiCAN Cerveza instructions say '1 week and bottle', We moved it off the yeast for a week of "Time settle still without being disturbed" and it is by far clearer than what was in the Primary. This works for light colored, darks, ALL BEER is clarified if moved to Secondary, Period. Even the process of 'racking' actually does #3 as well. We use a 'Whirlfloc' Tab to cover #2. The ONLY risk is that your sanitizing regimen will fall short and ruin your beer. As the thread has shown us it is an ever present threat, Infection, We have yet to have any issues in around 100 gallons brewed.

www.facebook.com/CandSBrewery

Offline tom_hampton

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
  • BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
    • Tom's Miata Racing Blog
Re: What is bad about long wort cooling off period?
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2013, 07:27:35 PM »
Transferring to secondary will not improve clarity.

Clarity is improved by 3 things :

1. Time settle still without being disturbed. 
2. Fining agents
3. Filtering
We find this statement contrary to itself..."Clarity is improved by 1. Time settle still without being disturbed" Now I'm sorry but our process includes a Secondary for every beer we make, even the No-Boil Munton's MexiCAN Cerveza instructions say '1 week and bottle', We moved it off the yeast for a week of "Time settle still without being disturbed" and it is by far clearer than what was in the Primary. This works for light colored, darks, ALL BEER is clarified if moved to Secondary, Period. Even the process of 'racking' actually does #3 as well. We use a 'Whirlfloc' Tab to cover #2. The ONLY risk is that your sanitizing regimen will fall short and ruin your beer. As the thread has shown us it is an ever present threat, Infection, We have yet to have any issues in around 100 gallons brewed.

www.facebook.com/CandSBrewery

Actually, it is not contradictory. 

Moving beer to secondary does NOT clarify anything.  All moving the beer does is stir it up again. 

Beer sitting in a container clarifies by the action of gravity pulling the suspended particles to the bottom of the container.  Gravity must overcome the forces of the currents within the beer.  These currents work to hold the particles in suspension.  The smaller the particles, the more influence these currents have on keeping them in suspension.  These currents are created by the fermentation action of the yeast.  Once the fermentation has completed, it takes a couple more days for the micro-currents to die down to a level sufficient for the yeast and other particles to be able to start settling. 

When you move a beer you stir it up, and you restart that clock for the currents to die down. 

Second, when you move a beer you introduce additional oxygen into the beer.  This is true no matter how careful you are.  New oxygen can restart some yeast metabolism, and can result in some additional fermentation.  any new action like this will again introduce micro-currents which will have to die down before the beer will begin to clarify. 

I'm sory, but racking is not filtering in any way.  Filtering is a process where particles IN SUSPENSION are removed from a fluid.  Racking removes the beer from on top of the trub, but doesn't remove ANYTHING that is suspended in the fluid.  Filtering works by forcing the fluid through a fine material of some kind with very small pores (measured in microns..genreally between 0.5 to 30 microns).  Some people use the canister style that you can get at box stores...others use the plate style that you can by from your LHBS.

Whirlfloc helps to coagulate some protiens during the boil...essentially increasing the amount of break material in the kettle.  I like to leave that behind in the kettle.  Yes, whirlfloc is kiind of a fining agent...but, its a kettle fining agent.  Its action is as a coagulant.  Finings like gelatin, bentonite, and isingglass work very differently.  They work by attracting particles of certain electric charges into larger clumps.  When these particles stick together into larger clumps they impove the ability of gravity to act on the larger clump (reducing the influence of micro-currents). 

When using finings like these, this is the only time that transferring to another vessel helps.  But, that is only because all finings must be stirred into the liquid to evenly distribute them throughout the fluid.  If I do that in the primary I've stirred up the trub---not helping.  However, I do not transfer to a secondary.  I transfer to my keg and add my finings directly to the keg.  Some homebrewers use a keg that has a shortened dip tube---called a bright tank.  After the bere has cleared they will move the beer to a standard keg for serving.  How useful that is...depends on your production volume, and how often you use finings.  If you use fine more often then every two weeks, a bright tank makes sense.  Also, because my keg has setiment on the bottom, I can't move my keg without stirring it up and makeing a few cloudy pints.

I want to pose an experiment for you to consider, but it can be a bit tricky to control the variables of influence.  Make a batch of beer that is large enough to fill two fermenters.  it could be two, 3 gallon carboys...or two 5 gallon carboys...doesn't matter.  The important point is that you make ONE batch of beer and split it into two vessels.  Pitch the same amount of the exact same yeast (one vial, one packet, one smack-pack...whatever).  Let them both ferment out, and then transfer ONE beer to a secondary as normal (1 week, two weeks whenever).  Leave the other in the primary.  use a wine thief to draw samples from each, once per week.  Compare in identical light, in identical glasses.  See which one becomes completely clear sooner. 

I bet you will find that the primary beer clarifies first, and the secondary will be several days (at least) behind. 

I've done this experiment.  I don't secondary, and I don't filter. I sometimes use gelatin for low floculant strains like Kolsch, and some belgians...if I want a brilliantly clear beer. 

I don't normally bother with putting my resume up for review.  The facts speak for themselves mostly.  I encourage people to do their own READING and controlled experiments, as above.  You can read all of this in most any brewing text (How to brew, etc).  But, you've only made 100 gallons.  That's great, but I made more than that just last year.  I've been making beer for 13 years now. I have a full fermentation room, where I can ferment up to 8 beers simultaneously.  I routinely have 4 going.  I currently have a belgian specialty, a Kolsch, an English Btter, and I just brewed an English Barleywine yesterday.  I also have a flanders red, a german apfelwein, Milk Stout, and a Belgian Blonde in kegs.  I think that's 40 gallons in various states of readiness...all that has been brewed since November. 

You may have one or two things left to learn about ways to make better beer.  I know I do, and I've lost count of how much beer I've made. 

R.I.P.:Belgian Blonde
On Tap: Apfelwein, Kolsch(v2), Pumpkin Ale, Belgian Specialty 
Aging/Storing: Coffee Porter, Chocolate Porter, Flanders Red, English Barlywine
Fermenting: Maggie's Altbier
Next Up: PtE(1.1), Belgian Dubbel?

Working thru all BCS recipes

Offline ron22250

  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 3
  • BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
Re: What is bad about long wort cooling off period?
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2013, 12:45:00 PM »
MY PERSONAL OPEN ION INVEST in a Wort Chiller....and they are perfect....here in the Portland Area...they cost about 40 Bucks...for one that will do a 5 gal..batch in about 5 min....I live in The Dalles Area ...and i Brew 3 or 4 Batches a week and
never have had a problem....WHEN THE WORT CHILLER IS WORKING take your Sanitized spoon and stir the Wort ever Minute or so and READ THE TEMP ON YOUR THERMOMETER....and i bring mine down from 212 deg to about 100 or 90 deg depending on what Temp. i have to Pitch the Yeast at....and then i just put the Wort Chiller in my Utility Sink and Rinse and sanitize real quick....and then transfer the wort to the PLASTIC FERMENTER.....NOT GLASS CARBOY....i use the glass carboy for Secondary....i have 3 of them....
then i read the Temp on the Plastic Fermemter and add water to the 5 Gal.. mark and WALLLLLA YOU THERE...
i hope this helps....
Ron 

Offline ron22250

  • BeerSmith Apprentice Brewer
  • **
  • Posts: 3
  • BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
Re: What is bad about long wort cooling off period?
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 12:52:22 PM »
I also saw you Mention about Coopers  Kits......I HAVE 2 COOPERS FERMENTERS FOR SALE TO...CHEAP...
1 of them is Brand new in the box...with all the bottles...SO IF YOU ARE INTERESTED...let me know at ron22250@gmail.com
Ron

 

modification