Author Topic: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT  (Read 6899 times)

Offline Waldner

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Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« on: November 22, 2013, 08:09:12 AM »
Suggestion: Under Equipment Profiles, you can put in deadspace calculations for the MT and BK but not the HLT. Put a section in this area so that can be calculated and entered into your recipe so you do not have to manually calculate this in your total water volume.

Thanks!

Offline 8bit

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2013, 08:11:40 PM »
This has been requested since at least 2007
http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=1173.0
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Offline RiverBrewer

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2013, 08:32:06 PM »
When a kettles only function is to contain water, why would it be needed????
Keep a few extra gallons in the HLT so if you need it, it is there. Do you really need to be obsessed with useless numbers? Seriously do you sparge until the last drop exits the kettle???
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 08:34:01 PM by RiverBrewer »
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Offline Waldner

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2013, 08:40:08 PM »
When a kettles only function is to contain water, why would it be needed????
Keep a few extra gallons in the HLT so if you need it, it is there. Do you really need to be obsessed with useless numbers? Seriously do you sparge until the last drop exits the kettle???
Ya, you're probably right. There's really no reason for this program either since everything can be calculated manually. Thanks for helping me see this clearly.

Offline brewfun

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2013, 01:19:48 AM »
Before this thread devolves into an Isnot - Isoooo argument, I want to know why it would make a difference in a brew day? There could be a clear reason.

On one hand, an empty HLT could mean dead empty. Nothing to pour out. ...On the other hand, it could man when a pump cavitates, which could be before the HLT is empty. Or it could mean something I have no idea how to anticipate.

In my view, the HLT is the same as a water spigot. When I have enough water, I shut it off. The water behind the valve is not wasted, it remains for another use. I always need water to clean the mash tun and kettle, flush the wort chiller and generally clean up. Warmer is often better.

OTOH, I can see a need for precision in water volumes to account for water treatment by either minerals or acidification. It can be kinda useless folly to go to all the trouble of calculating minerals and acids, only to realize the volumes where off. Thus mash and sparge were off and later flavor suffers.

Yet in my mind, it is equal folly to blindly follow a program without understanding the theory behind the program's decisions. Few follow a map program into a clear dead end. As humans, we process a lot more dynamic data than a program can hope to grasp.
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline MaltLicker

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2013, 06:50:49 AM »
Few follow a map program into a clear dead end. As humans, we process a lot more dynamic data than a program can hope to grasp.


On a related tangent, for primarily the newer brewers and newer BS2 users out there, all brewing software is set up with generic standards, ingredients, and profiles for equipment, mash schedules, etc.  No code writer could ever design a platform that perfectly fit all 20,000 users and their unique equipment and process. 

Each user has to invest some time to understand the program they use, and to customize it to fit their methods.   So in some cases, rather than it being "BeerSmith told me" it is more accurate to say "I just haven't learned how to set up BeerSmith yet on this or that."   And then when you do, your software can now do more for you.   And brew day gets easier, and perhaps your beer gets closer to your goals. 

And that cycle continues, regardless how much you think you know about your brewing software.   I constantly learn new things here from other users. 


Offline Waldner

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2013, 07:20:54 AM »
Thank you. I use BeerSmith to calculate my total water volumes and calculate my water adjustments as you suggested. I recently needed to change my equipment and setup a new equipment profile causing a recalculation in these figures. For an upcoming brew session my total water volumes for my brew were going to be 11.14 gallons. However, realizing BeerSmith did not account for HLT deadspace I actually needed 13.14 gallons total. So my volume was off changing the size of the pot I needed for my HLT. In addition, on my other system, not having this figure built in also throws off the amount of water I need to keep my HERMS coil covered. As you also suggested, this additional water then throws off my water adjustments I make at the beginning of my brew session.

I do make these adjustments manually now that I am aware of the shortfall but having this built in to the equipment profile would not only assist myself but I hope others in making sure their volumes are correct and any adjustments they make to their water profile thereafter. It's a small enhancement but one I think is worthwhile.

I do understand all the calculations behind this program and the nuances of what's happening. I have brewed good beers with BeerSmith and without BeerSmith. However, the use of the program is a matter of convenience and I'm just trying to help it be more convenient for its users.

If small enhancements and suggestions such as these are not welcome in this forum just because they do not bring about large changes moving the software from version 2.0 to 3.0, then perhaps Brad needs to setup another avenue for them to be expressed. But that's only a suggestion  :)

Thank you.

Offline Oginme

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2013, 07:49:46 AM »
Few follow a map program into a clear dead end. As humans, we process a lot more dynamic data than a program can hope to grasp.


On a related tangent, for primarily the newer brewers and newer BS2 users out there, all brewing software is set up with generic standards, ingredients, and profiles for equipment, mash schedules, etc.  No code writer could ever design a platform that perfectly fit all 20,000 users and their unique equipment and process. 

Each user has to invest some time to understand the program they use, and to customize it to fit their methods.   So in some cases, rather than it being "BeerSmith told me" it is more accurate to say "I just haven't learned how to set up BeerSmith yet on this or that."   And then when you do, your software can now do more for you.   And brew day gets easier, and perhaps your beer gets closer to your goals. 

And that cycle continues, regardless how much you think you know about your brewing software.   I constantly learn new things here from other users.

Thank you Maltlicker for saying it so well.  Too many people blindly follow the stock profiles and are then frustrated with the instructions given by a program that does not represent their particular set-up, equipment, and how they use it.
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Offline brewfun

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2013, 09:13:04 AM »
If small enhancements and suggestions such as these are not welcome in this forum just because they do not bring about large changes moving the software from version 2.0 to 3.0, then perhaps Brad needs to setup another avenue for them to be expressed. But that's only a suggestion  :)

I think the response clarifies your goals, perfectly. It makes sense if you're using an additional tool like Bru'n Water. (My fantasy is to have Bru'n Water baked into BeerSmith... *sigh*)

Just a couple of practical things.
Acid adjustments in the HLT shouldn't be too hard to verify.
In practice, I find that mineralizing in the mash and boil is far more effective at flavor control than in the HLT.

I used to mineralize the HLT, but so many things can make that go pear shaped.

Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline RiverBrewer

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2013, 07:50:00 PM »

[/quote]Brewfun
(My fantasy is to have Bru'n Water baked into BeerSmith... *sigh*)
[/quote]

Great fantasy! Mine adds Kai Troester's spreadsheets to your list.
I love it when someone does the calculating for me :)
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Offline BenB20000

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Re: Equipment Profile - Calculate Deadspace for HLT
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2014, 12:45:30 AM »
It is a shame this function isn't available. I recognise for fly sparging it isn't so important but for batch sparging it is rather useful. Admittedly it's not the most difficult adjustment to make (just add the deadspace to the "liquour required" amount in steps but it would be useful and it could default to being switched off for those who don't need it... (IE it would relatively simple I imagine to implement in the software).

Why give a "total water needed" figure to two decimal points when this ignores HLT dead space? With my equipment that understates the actual total water required by over 2 litres- making the "total water" figure seem a bit silly. Okay I could get round this problem by inverting the HLT and dumping the deadspace liquid in but having organised equipment to avoid unnecessary oxidation and manual handling of hot liquids it seems a shame to have to do so to compensate for the lack of a HLT deadspace function...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 12:48:13 AM by BenB20000 »

 

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