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Brut IPA

dtapke

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seems slow today, My next beer i think will be a Brut IPA. Anyone play with this yet?  sound's like a great spring/summer beer to me. I'm thinking maris otter/pilsner malt for base a small hop charge for kettle performance, some whirlpool for 30 min at 175, then a few big dry hop charges. Debating doing Nelson Sauvin or a NS and Citra double dry hop. I haven't had any commercial examples but the concept sounds nice.
 

dtapke

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maybe something simple like this. I've got to do some reading on amyloglucosidase addition, and I'm a bit curious what water profile i should target.


i'm also debating subbing some barley for rice and/or corn, some wheat. not really sure yet! Seems like its all over the place. but i like the concept. super crisp and dry but with a lot of good hop flavor and aroma. I like Nelson Sauvin for its dry wine-like profile. and I'm thinking the oyl-200 for its fruity characteristics. maybe even underpitch and ferment high temps... anyways, just hoping for someone to bounce ideas off of!
 

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merfizle

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Here's mine. Just be careful when under pitching, some yeast will through off unwanted flavors/aromas.

As for water, I chose RO and mineralized it to "yellow balanced". I recommend dry hopping during primary as the yeast interaction with the hops can create something different and very satisfying. Multiple small charges of dry hops usually does more for me than one, large charge. I added amylase about 3-4 days into primary fermentation. FG was 1.003 or so after 2-3 weeks.

Cheers,

Mark
 

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dtapke

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I usually do my first Dry Hop at high krausen with dry hopped beers, oyl-200 is pretty well known to love a bit of abuse, i've used it in a few NEIPA's i've done and been pretty happy, although i'm mildly concerned with the intentional over-attenuation that the amylase will provide, so i may be a bit more timid with this first batch.

i've heard good things of adding rice/corn/wheat, but may go more standard with just malt for the first batch i try. Moteuka could certainly be a good addition with the NS I think i've got a pound or two laying around of that as well.

Overall, what did you think of yours? what would you change on your next batch?

as far as the yellow balanced profile, i'm a bit concerned about the sulfate coming through a bit much and was thinking a more minerally (thats a word right?) profile maybe like the "munich" style one would use for bocks to help accentuate the hop bite and provide a bit crisper flavor.. water is still my weak point in brewing. I do start with RO/DI water and build from there, and have a decent grasp on it, but really need to learn more (always!)
 

GigaFemto

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dtapke said:
i've heard good things of adding rice/corn/wheat, but may go more standard with just malt for the first batch i try.

The advantages of corn and rice for this style is that they can produce wort that is very light in color. On the other hand, they have no enzymes so your malt must have enough diastatic power to convert all the starches. Because the proportion of rice or corn in these recipes tends to be quite high, that can be a challenge. You can add amylase enzyme if your base malt is not up to the task. This is added at the start of the mash, in addition to any alpha galactosidase that you add in the mash or during fermentation.

--GF
 

dtapke

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I've brewed with plenty of flaked corn before, but not rice. I just figured i'd do a cereal mash if i was to use a large amount of them.

and i haven't really seen any recipes on a brut yet, but i usually don't follow many peoples recipes i much prefer to get the concept down and create my own.
 

brewfun

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The concept of Brut IPA is not even two years old, yet. So, it's still evolving as a style. To me, it's more of a technique than a style, but that's how I view Cal Common, too.

What sets it apart is the use of adjuncts plus enzymes in the mash and fermentation to increase the fermentability, decrease proteins and generally vanish the malt character. What's left is hop character carried by alcohol. The hop character is supposed to show the effects of bittering, late WP, then early and late dry hop, while being bone dry, effervescent and brilliantly clear.

This article discusses how Kim Sturdavant started the technique. https://beerandbrewing.com/the-birth-of-the-brut-ipa/

The irony is, that to be made well, the brewer must embrace the same technology and wort manipulation long practiced by the mass lager companies, that most vow to hate. Adjunct grain and enzymes are the keys to this emerging style. Another irony is that some assume champagne yeast is required when it is not. In fact, the esters and fusel alcohol of champagne yeast can get in the way.

Long ago, I accepted the fact that brewers are early adopters of technology and push the boundries of malt's willingness and flexibility for making beer. After all, by 1855, lager breweries had mostly accepted that pure yeast strains were making better beer (sort of an early germ theory) and that microbes could ruin it. However, in 1865, surgeons were still wiping knives on their shirt sleeves in open sided tents during the US civil war.

I make a Brut with corn (instant grits) and three types of enzymes. I get pungent hop aroma and complex hop flavor, along with just about double the shelf life of my primary DIPA. There's also Munich malt which is transformed into wonderful crusty bread flavor without the usual sweetness. A benefit of amylase enzyme is you can use crystal malt because it'll break down dextrine and leave the flavor.

Attached is my first recipe for Brut.




 

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merfizle

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dtapke said:
I usually do my first Dry Hop at high krausen with dry hopped beers, oyl-200 is pretty well known to love a bit of abuse, i've used it in a few NEIPA's i've done and been pretty happy, although i'm mildly concerned with the intentional over-attenuation that the amylase will provide, so i may be a bit more timid with this first batch.

i've heard good things of adding rice/corn/wheat, but may go more standard with just malt for the first batch i try. Moteuka could certainly be a good addition with the NS I think i've got a pound or two laying around of that as well.

Overall, what did you think of yours? what would you change on your next batch?

as far as the yellow balanced profile, i'm a bit concerned about the sulfate coming through a bit much and was thinking a more minerally (thats a word right?) profile maybe like the "munich" style one would use for bocks to help accentuate the hop bite and provide a bit crisper flavor.. water is still my weak point in brewing. I do start with RO/DI water and build from there, and have a decent grasp on it, but really need to learn more (always!)

Yeah, I'm glad mine didn't hit 1.000 or lower. I didn't want it to seem thin or watery. The beer did very well in a club contest. We compared the beer with Surly DAF and liked the home brew better due to increased hop character. Especially aromas. I like Motueka better than Galaxy or even Mosaic.

If I were to do it again, I'd increase hop usage by 5-10 percent.

Mark
 

GigaFemto

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dtapke said:
I've brewed with plenty of flaked corn before, but not rice. I just figured i'd do a cereal mash if i was to use a large amount of them.

The cereal mash will gelatinize the starches and make them available to the enzymes, but it won't convert the starches to sugars. Similarly, the amyloglucosidase (e.g. UltraFerm) will break down large sugars into small fermentable ones, but won't turn the starches into sugars. You need the amylase enzymes to do that, then the amyloglucosidase can work on the resulting sugars. Most base malts will have enough enzymes to handle a grist with 30% flaked corn or rice, but Munich or other kilned malts will not.
 

dtapke

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Brewfun- Thanks for an excellent reply. Honestly I'd never heard of it until a buddy of mine said "hey can we brew a brut on your system?" and i was like "what the F is that?"

living in central WI and my nearest Beer Club is 40 minutes away and has about 8 members after forming 6 months ago... Talking about civil war surgeons and their practices always makes me think of Ignaz Semmelweis who said doctors should wash their hands before delivering a baby, and was ostracized for such radical thoughts!

I'm curious your thoughts on shelf life, i give my NEIPA 4-6 weeks, my DIPA's 6-8 weeks, are you saying you are getting a consistent 12-16 week or so shelf life out of your Brut without significant flavor changes? I had planned on using a-amylase and glucoamylase and just pils and maris, but I'm being convinced to add some rice and/or corn into the mash. that article was helpful to get a better understanding of the style.

Current adaptations include:
subbing some base for rice or corn or both. I know i've got corn on hand but don't feel the creaminess would work well.
kicking the oyl-200 out for a cleaner yeast. perhaps a kolsch yeast.

How high are folks carbing? I was thinking 4 volumes or so to gain that effervescence.
 

dtapke

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cereal mash just gets returned to standard mash with a-amylase if i'm not mistaken?

I'm definitely in the camp of "I've never brewed with rice before because ABinBev" lol But i'm also heavily into experimentation.
 

dtapke

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Brewfun- Are you really targeting 1600ibus? something about your hop schedule that doesn't seem right... your pilot there is only a hair larger than mine and i can't imagine throwing 500oz+ of hops in the kettle....
 

dtapke

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GigaFemto said:
dtapke said:
I've brewed with plenty of flaked corn before, but not rice. I just figured i'd do a cereal mash if i was to use a large amount of them.

The cereal mash will gelatinize the starches and make them available to the enzymes, but it won't convert the starches to sugars. Similarly, the amyloglucosidase (e.g. UltraFerm) will break down large sugars into small fermentable ones, but won't turn the starches into sugars. You need the amylase enzymes to do that, then the amyloglucosidase can work on the resulting sugars. Most base malts will have enough enzymes to handle a grist with 30% flaked corn or rice, but Munich or other kilned malts will not.


Oh gosh. I've spent too many years geeking out on yeast and using modified malts to really think about much of this. I know most of your common 2-rows have 100-150 lintner and can break down quite a bit of unmodified malts, and i found out that OYL-200 can actually break down dextrine(that was an interesting find), so maybe I'll go back to that yeast, or continue with a cleaner yeast and use enzymes instead for this.

What about just using some rice syrup? I may hate myself a bit for it, but it may make life a bit easier. As i'm reading it, if using rice, I'll first have to cereal mash, then add to the main mash, then add enzyme to help break down. i guess since i already planned on using additional enzymes in this that isn't a huge deal breaker...

I've noticed neither of the recipes listed here have rice in them. Is this because neither of y'all wanted the headache? lol!
 

dtapke

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first, sorry to continue to dump concepts, but would a 20 min dough in rest around 110-120 help with the limit dextrinase to break down the additional branches, OR run your mash at 145 then drop down to 115 for a limit dextrinase rest?
 

brewfun

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dtapke said:
Brewfun- Are you really targeting 1600ibus? something about your hop schedule that doesn't seem right... your pilot there is only a hair larger than mine and i can't imagine throwing 500oz+ of hops in the kettle....

Oops. No, of course not. My real name is not Mikkeller!  :-[

I was rounding the ingredient numbers from a scaled down recipe. My hops were still set to pounds.

Recipe: 85 - 90 ibu
Chinook: 10-12 ibu
Mosaic @15 45-47 ibu
Citra WP 15-20 ibu
Simcoe WP 15-20 ibu

Dryhop is correct at 2 lbs total for the batch.
 

brewfun

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dtapke said:
Brewfun-

I'm curious your thoughts on shelf life, i give my NEIPA 4-6 weeks, my DIPA's 6-8 weeks, are you saying you are getting a consistent 12-16 week or so shelf life out of your Brut without significant flavor changes?

Kegged, I can get 5 months out of the brut without too much hop drop. Now, that's different than saying there's no changes. All beer ages and changes. At 6 months it's definitely too far gone to be sold. I've put a 4 month sales expiration so that customers have a full month to sell it.

With bottles, it has to be on shelves by 2 months and is probably done for at 4 months. I try not to bottle or can IPAs for that reason.

How high are folks carbing? I was thinking 4 volumes or so to gain that effervescence.

I shoot for 2.7 vols. Over 2.4 is problematic for some tap lines. I don't think the beer benefits from high CO2 because the hops are already foam positive and all that gas can add a bitter chalkiness to something so dry.
 

dtapke

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@Brewfun Any improvements you think you'll make on your next round of it?

I was debating adding any hops other than FWH, WP, and Dry. do you feel the 15min hops really add anything? from my TINY bit of understanding of the style, it shouldn't have much if any bitterness so i was planning on keeping kettle hops to just a touch for binding as FWH and then just whirlpool and dry.

Granted i dont know if i'll ever make a perfect recipe, but i think even beers that i've brewed 10+ times i make a tweak every batch. granted i'm still just a meager homebrewer ;)
 

dtapke

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Thanks all for the input. Going to go with a Kolsch yeast (wy2565) I just recently brewed a cream ale with I think, shooting for 1.056

40/40 pilsner and maris otter base
15 corn
5 sucrose (instead of rice)

and currently planning single hop variety with NS, but that may change on brew day (saturday!) when I'm actually sifting through hops in the freezer...
 

dtapke

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Of course, my refractometer is broken... that was a fun thing to find out. not sure how, why, what, where, etc it got broke, but I will have beer.
Generally being a bit of a control freak, i'm just going to let it ride. It'll be ok.. it will be ok... it will be ok...

went with a citra FWH, NS/Citra 30m@175 Whirlpool and will be doing NS/Citra ddh.
went with 40 pils, 25 maris otter, 25 vienna, 10 corn

as an aside, "Ultraferm" i bought in a hurry via online vendor was $5 for "5 gallons"

grabbed some generic powdered Glucoamylase from the LHBS for $2.50 and it appears to have enough to do about 50 gallons... kinda annoyed about that.

Being a pretty regular brewer for the last 10-15 years, with a pretty locked down procedure on a lot of things, and a very nice home built system, this brew day couldn't have gone much worse for me. But in the end, I'm going to have beer, and something to learn from. New refrac on order, I just wish i could keep a hydrometer on hand, seems like they last one brew day for me and then i break them somehow lol.
 

dtapke

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hit .995 a few days ago and has stalled out there. Originally went for 1.056 gravity thinking "oh this will be a nice 5-6% beer" not even thinking about the fact that i'm planning a 100%+ attenuation...

Whoops!
 
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