• Welcome to the new forum! We upgraded our forum software with a host of new boards, capabilities and features. It is also more secure.
    Jump in and join the conversation! You can learn more about the upgrade and new features here.

Brut IPA

brewfun

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
2,305
Reaction score
0
Location
Ventura, CA
dtapke said:
hit .995 a few days ago and has stalled out there. Originally went for 1.056 gravity thinking "oh this will be a nice 5-6% beer" not even thinking about the fact that i'm planning a 100%+ attenuation...

Whoops!

0.995 is perfect! You're looking at just water and alcohol, of course. How does it taste?
 

dtapke

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
452
Reaction score
0
Location
Portage, Wisconsin
DEEEE LICIOUS

I went ahead and dropped it in a keg and it's sitting on 2psi while i debate filtering... its hazy, which i definitely expected. I'm just trying to determine if i want to run it through a .5 micron filter to clear or if that'll kill too much of my hop flavor.

I think the Nelson Sauvin really shines in this beer. I'm almost a little sad i decided to mix citra in with it, although i think it also added a delicous bit of passion fruit and citrus, where the NS doesn't really have those tropical fruity notes, i find it to be more grape and stone fruit (some would disagree with stone fruit, but i get it so...)

Definitely excited to run this batch again and change up a bit of the malt bill i think. I wanted to add the vienna for a bit more flavor, but with the enzyme addition i think it kind of killed off the flavor that it normally imparts. I'm thinking a small addition of honey malt (3-5%) could benefit this beer, or perhaps even just some straight honey to give a bit more of a wine/mead like flavor.

I'm also thinking of running a bit different water profile, more chloride to sulphate than the yellow balanced provides to help add that malty mouthfeel considering that the over attenuation kind of kills that. this should help with the body, making it a bit "thicker" without actually adding any gravity. Although, that kind of kills the concept? I'm not sure. Overall its fun to experiment with!
 

brewfun

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
2,305
Reaction score
0
Location
Ventura, CA
dtapke said:
Definitely excited to run this batch again and change up a bit of the malt bill i think. I wanted to add the vienna for a bit more flavor, but with the enzyme addition i think it kind of killed off the flavor that it normally imparts. I'm thinking a small addition of honey malt (3-5%) could benefit this beer, or perhaps even just some straight honey to give a bit more of a wine/mead like flavor.

With the enzyme, you can use malts with bigger flavor than you might, otherwise. As the enzyme converts the dextrines, you're left with the "essence" of the malt, not the sweetness. This was the most surprising and delightful effect, for me.

I don't get an obvious honey character from honey malt. It adds toastiness to the overall malt flavor. One of the few malts where the aroma doesn't translate to the finished beer.
 

dtapke

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
452
Reaction score
0
Location
Portage, Wisconsin
interesting, i definitely get honeylike sweetness and kind of a "foamy" mouthfeel when i use honey malt in 3-5% range.

Went ahead and carbed it up over the weekend, I was 100% surprised at the body this beer had, I expected it to be thin, crisp. It's not!

I was also concerned the alcohol would overwhelm the beer, DON'T EVEN NOTICE IT.

Brought a growler to a friends place, he was shocked. Felt it was better than the two commercial examples he'd had. was also shocked to learn the ABV and FG. I'm really digging this!
 

jomebrew

Forum Moderator
Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,057
Reaction score
2
Keep in mind using amylase in the fermenter can increase diacetyl. It is important to have a good diacetyl rest. That has been and still is a problem with Brut IPA. 

I add amylase to all my beers now and try to stop them at 1 plato. Not for the "Brut" effect but for a 30% or so reduction in carbs where my typical final gravity was 3 plato.
 

dtapke

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
452
Reaction score
0
Location
Portage, Wisconsin
I perform a diacetyl rest on nearly every beer I brew. No notes of Diacetyl in this beer, so I must have done something right :)

I always hope to have a "Great" beer even on my first time brewing a beer, this exceeded my expectations. I'm excited to improve on a beer i already find to be "Great"

a note on enzymes though. I used Whitelabs "Ultraferm" as my Glucoamylase source. It's expensive. I picked up a generic labeled powdered Gluoamylase enzyme from my lhbs, I'm curious as to if any of you who have brewed this style have had experience between different types/sources of enzyme?

I used 2 vials in my mash (says 1per 5g, mash was for 15g) and 1 vial per 5g fermenting. Being unfamiliar with using enzymes in this manner, could i/should i have used more? less? is there any standard amount per degree P per volume to reach certain goals?
 

jomebrew

Forum Moderator
Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,057
Reaction score
2
I use this one in my fermenter only. I add about 1 teaspoon.  https://fermentationsolutions.com/amylase-enzyme-1-5-oz/ It does not seem to matter the amylase you use (crushed beano works too) though there may be some differences in the conversion percentage.

The originator of this style, Kim Sturdavant, advises to use it in the mash at 143 - 146f adding it after 20 minutes letting the mash settle. He also suggested you can add it to the kettle after all the wort has been transfered and hold it at 145F got 30 minutes then bring to  boil and brew normally.

For me, adding to the fermenter, performing a good diacetyl rest then packaging as normal has been successful.
 

dtapke

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
452
Reaction score
0
Location
Portage, Wisconsin
Are you implying that there is no difference in the results between α-amylase and β-amylase additions as well as glucoamylase?

I now feel the need for experimentation. 1g with alpha-amylase, 1g with beta-amylase, and 1 with glucoamylase added to the fermenter of a wort split off for those three different enzyme additions.

from my pretty brief reading up on the enzymes, it would seem the glucoamylase or Alpha-glucosidase debranches maltose to two glucose units. whereas alpha-amylase is primarily responsible more for breaking down starches into maltose and glucose. I'm still mostly an idiot when it comes to all of this so perhaps my understanding is wrong, as it would seem an addition of both would be beneficial at certain points.

However glucoamylase seems to be the enzyme thats "making the style" in some ways, which seems mildly odd to me as my understanding of yeast is that they can use glucose and maltose with no issues, so an enzyme that breaks down maltose into 2xglucose isn't really that helpful?
 

brewfun

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
2,305
Reaction score
0
Location
Ventura, CA
dtapke said:
from my pretty brief reading up on the enzymes, it would seem the glucoamylase or Alpha-glucosidase debranches maltose to two glucose units.
Maltose is 2 glucose, joined at the (1-4) bond. Beta Amylase makes this. Alpha Amylase breaks the (1-6) bond. Given enough time, Amylase can produce both glucose and maltose, but not as effectively as Beta Amylase.
whereas alpha-amylase is primarily responsible more for breaking down starches into maltose and glucose. I'm still mostly an idiot when it comes to all of this so perhaps my understanding is wrong, as it would seem an addition of both would be beneficial at certain points.
For fermentation, maltose and glucose matter. Polysaccharides (aka dextrines) are not usable by beer yeast because they don't produce the enzymes. The flora associated with "wild" fermentation do have the enzymes, but that's not part of making a Brut.

What's important is the cell walls of the yeast. Healthy yeast will utilize maltose. Unhealthy, under pitched, under oxygenated yeast tend to make cell walls that process only glucose. In any all malt wort, glucose is 3% to 4% of the available sugars. Once the glucose is consumed, the yeast stalls out. OTOH, in even high alcohol environments (>6%), yeast will consume glucose (and dextrose). The speed of consumption is determined by how much contact the yeast has, meaning flocculated yeast is slower than when it;s in suspension, of course.
However glucoamylase seems to be the enzyme thats "making the style" in some ways, which seems mildly odd to me as my understanding of yeast is that they can use glucose and maltose with no issues, so an enzyme that breaks down maltose into 2xglucose isn't really that helpful?
There is a whole family of amylases that all pretty much end up in the same place: digestible sugars.
Glucoamylase is a "digestive" enzyme that has two parts, each working on different substrate. It'll break existing starches into polysaccharides, then break those into simple sugars that yeast can consume.

In terms of fermentation results, there really shouldn't be any functional difference. However, the types of sugar produced and the yeast strain can always interact to give unexpected flavors.
 

dtapke

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
452
Reaction score
0
Location
Portage, Wisconsin
So the predominate benefit to glucoamylase is that its debranching the maltose into 2 glucose units which yeast is far better equipped to handle than maltose.

beta amylase and alpha amylase both produce glucose and maltose from various starches and polysaccherides. however the addition of the glucoamylase takes the maltose that was produced by the beta and alpha amylases and breaks them down into 2 glucose units is my understanding. therefore i would think that adding additional beta and alpha would have little effect assuming all of the conversions they can do, were done during the mash?

thats where i'm getting lost i think. Beta and Alpha are primarily responsible for conversion during the mash, and i assumed their jobs were done by the time you start boiling... therefore glucoamylase as an addition is beneficial because grain doesn't have enough glucoamylase to perform that function during the mash?


UGH. Time to break out the old biology books :p

answer me this please: Where is the shortfall that the benefits from the addition of enzymes in fermentation?
 

jomebrew

Forum Moderator
Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,057
Reaction score
2
Thanks Brewfun for the detailed breakdown.
Dtapke, I am just keeping it simple for us more relaxed brewers.

My take away from all my research was that there was little difference in the overall conversion and simply, more complex sugars are reduced to simpler sugars for the yeast to consume. I believe what really makes a difference is a healthy fermentation with ample yeast count and fermentation conditions. My experience has backed this up though I have only used the two amylase (the link I posted and White Labs). Both finished the same. I've used amylase in both the mash and fermenter as well as just one or the other. I found I prefer the beers with the amylase is added when I pitch yeast. I've used it in about 12 batches now and am smitten with the results.
 

dtapke

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
452
Reaction score
0
Location
Portage, Wisconsin
LOL that's kind of my takeaway as well, except i do enjoy learning the "How and Why" behind what happens so i can utilize that a bit better in the future.

I'll add one thing, I pitched a pretty healthy count (1.2m/p/ml) had an incredibly vigorous fermentation, and probably ended with 2X as much yeast slurry than what i normally do for that quantity of beer at that rate. So even though i pitched a more than sufficient quantity of viable yeast, they still split like mad!
 

brewfun

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
2,305
Reaction score
0
Location
Ventura, CA
dtapke said:
So the predominate benefit to glucoamylase is that its debranching the maltose into 2 glucose units which yeast is far better equipped to handle than maltose.
I think you're assuming something that isn't true. Two glucose joined at the (1-4) bond IS maltose. Yeast breaks that bond to make glucose and move fermentation forward through glycolysis to make pyruvate. Amylase enzymes used in mash or later have nothing to do with this process.

beta amylase and alpha amylase both produce glucose and maltose from various starches and polysaccherides. however the addition of the glucoamylase takes the maltose that was produced by the beta and alpha amylases and breaks them down into 2 glucose units is my understanding. therefore i would think that adding additional beta and alpha would have little effect assuming all of the conversions they can do, were done during the mash?
It depends on your definition of "done." Insofar as the enzymes CAN act while under the pressures of temperature, time and enormous amounts of substrate are concerned, yes, they're "done" when the mash is over.

Alpha Amylase will break the (1-6) bond, creating more straight chain (1-4) bonds, which may or may not get reduced to maltose by Beta Amylase. That's time/temperature dependent. As Alpha Amylase continues, more and more short chain (1-4) glycosides are created, which yeast can break down, but usually don't because easier to ferment sugars go first. Some strains DO ferment those polysaccharides, which we notice as increased attenuation.

In all of this, there is starch and polysaccharide carryover into the fermenter. Alpha and Beta Amylase at fermentation temperatures have a much longer half life, so can break down more of the remaining substrate. Glucoamylase does effectively "do the same thing" but is apparently better at finding substrate to work on, especially in alcohol, and has a longer half life.
 

happy hillbilly

Master Brewer
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
69
Reaction score
0
Location
hills of Kentucky
ole Happy here. I was readin up on this Brut beer and i'm relly interested. What confuses me is this enzyme thing. I've used amylase a lot before to convert some adjuncts. I haven't used the beta amylase or gluconase though. according to what i've found online the ranges of these enzymes are as follows:

                                            active range            optimum
beta glucanase                        95-131                      113
beta amylase                          130-150                    148
alpha amylase                        150-160                      158

these are temperatures in F

I do understand that they aren't only active during these temps but the difference in mash temps and fermentation temps seem to say that they wont work during the ferment. Is there something I'm missing here?
I will say that when you put the alpha amylase in a bunch of cooked rice or corn and stir it is amazing to see the conversion real time!
 

brewfun

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
2,305
Reaction score
0
Location
Ventura, CA
The thing to remember is that these enzymes exist in the grain itself. As a field seed, the enzymes would do the work of releasing food for the new barley stalk to grow. In malting we take advantage of this very fact, allowing the seed to break down from a steely field grain into a friable (crushable, easily crumbled) product we call malt. There isn't too much difference between soil temperatures and those of fermentation.

 
Top