• Welcome to the new forum! We upgraded our forum software with a host of new boards, capabilities and features. It is also more secure.
    Jump in and join the conversation! You can learn more about the upgrade and new features here.

Batch Sparging Question

Firkin A

Apprentice
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Hey guys....I've been a long time lurker and I have learned a ton from this forum, but I am finally stumped enough to ask my first question.  I am brewing a Sweet Stout and have chosen to use Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge as my mash setting.  Beersmith tells me to mash in with 3.69 gallons of water.  No problem.  Then it tells me that my sparge will be in two steps...first with 1.22 gallons and then with 3.49 gallons.  My question is why am I being instructed to sparge in 2 steps?  Can't I just add them together and do 1 sparge of 4.71 gallons?  I also assume that I am to Vorlauf and collect the runnings after each of the 2 sparges....correct?  The only reasoning for this that I can possibly think of is that my tun wouldn't be big enough to hold all of the grain plus the 4.71 gallons of water.  For the record, my recipe uses 11.81 total pounds of grain and I have a 10 gallon round Rubbermaid mash tun with a false bottom.  Also, this is my first all-grain brew ever so I am not intimately familiar with my equipment or their capabilities yet. 

Thanks in advance.

-Lou
 
Hi Lou,

I am by no means an expert.  I just brew a lot.  I don't know why you would have "2 sparges".  That seems counterintuitive to me.  If indeed you have a vessel large enough to hold your sparge water and your mash tun vessel is large enough to hold the added water while it's draining into your brew pot, I see no reason to not do it in one step.  As to the Vorlauf, I would do it.  Collect the first couple liters and strain it back through the grain bed.  It does make a clearer wort.  One word of caution, keep the sparge slow as you lauter into your brew kettle.  If you go too quick the odds of a stuck sparge increase.  It usually takes me about 20-30min to get all the wort into the boil kettle.  I only share this as you mentioned it was your first all grain brew.  Best of luck.  I hope this helped at least a little.  Above all, don't worry too much.  Have fun, enjoy the process and it will turn out fine!

-Patrick 
 
The reason for the batch sparge with two steps, is not as obvious as it seems.  Beersmith is trying to even out your first and second runnings, so that each draining of the mash tun is the same volume.  In addition, that first batch sparge addition will aid in getting your mash up to a mash out temperatue of 168F, which is the optimum temperature to vorlauf and drain your mash tun at.

The first batch sparge is added to the mash tun, while the original strike water is still in there.  Theoretically, you'll then drain 3.49 gallons out of your mash tun.  The 3.49 gallons is arrived at because you'll have water additions of 3.69 gallons and 1.22 gallons for a total water added up through the end of the second batch sparge of (3.69 + 1.22 = 4.91 gallons).  The grain should absorb about 1.42 gallons of water so....(4.91 gallons of water added minus 1.42 gallons of grain absorbed water = 3.49 gallons of first runnings. (Note:  I have no idea of you have mash tun dead space, etc., so my number could be off...this is just an example to let you know why it's done this way.)

Then you'll add, 3.49 gallons of your second batch sparge to the drained of first runnings grains, and you'll drain 3.49 gallons of second runnings back out, leaving you with 6.98 gallons of wort in your boil kettle.

This is what beersmith wants you to do.  It's also the process that I use.

Further, you need to add the batch sparges at the correct temperatures, so that your mash tun settles at 168F, after your mash.  What follows is how I do it....(from begining to end)....

Once you're done with your intitial mash and have your starches converted to sugars (about 1 hour of mash time), you'll add 1.22 gallons of water to your still full mash tun.  You will not have drained it at all yet.  You'll want to have that first 1.22 gallon batch sparge addition to be hot enough that the entire contents of your mash tun (grains, original strike water and the 1.22 first batch sparge settles at 168F.  Unfortunately, you'd have to be at about 220F with your 1.22 gallons of water just to get to 168F.

How I handle this is, I heat my 1.22 gallons of first batch sparge water to boiling and add it.  Stir it in and see where your mash temperature settles at.  It will be in the low 160F range, depending on how much heat you lost during the 1 hour mash time. 

Then, vorlauf and drain about a half gallon of wort out and bring it to a boil, then add it back in, stir and see where it settles at.  If it's about 165F to 170F, close the lid and let it sit for about 10-15 minutes to let as much of the sugar in the wort thin down so that you can extract as much as possible. If you feel it's still too low, you can once again vorlauf a little bit out, bring it to a boil and add it back in.  Try "not" to go over 170F, as you have the potential to extract tannins and get some grainy flavors or astrigency flavors.  We don't want that flavor in our beer.  Better to be a little low on the mash out temperature and suffer a little on efficiency, than to be too high and adversely affect the flavor.  However, you'll eventually get the hang of it and will quickly get to 168F mash out temperatures!

Now you can vorlauf and slowly drain your mash tun (with the lid on, so that you don't lose heat!).  Once you have the first wort in the boil kettle, then you add your second batch sparge of 3.49 gallons to the mash tun.  What I do is I check the temperature of the grain in the mash tun, before I add the second batch sparge.  I then calculate in my head about what temperature I need to be at with the second batch sparge to once again settle at about 168F.  Once it's stirred in good and is at 168F, close the lid and let it sit for 10-15 minutes.  You can put heat to the first runnings wort in your boil kettle and get it heading towards a boil, while you wait tha 10-15 minutes.

After the 10-15 minutes, vorlauf and drain your mash tun slowly into your boil kettle, adding this second runnings to the first runnings.  You should have about 6.94 gallons in your boil kettle now.

I hope this helped!!
 
Scott, great answer... I'm a dolt, I didn't read carefully enough.  I always fly sparge so apologies for the simplistic answer.  The details that Scott provides on batch sparging are super.  Take care all!

-Pat
 
Scott,

That answer was PERFECT!  Like you said, it is not obvious, but it does make sense.  The only thing that has me thinking is if you have to be at around 220 with the sparge additions to get your mash up to 168 then why does Beersmith tell me to use 168 degree water in that situation?  There is no way that a 168 degree sparge of only 1.22 gallons is going to bring up the entire mash to 168. 

Thank you very much for your help.
 
BeerSmith doesn't know the actual temp of the mash before sparging, so by adding  a small amount of boiling water, your adjusting  it to the set sparge temp. The temp of your sparge water can be change in the mash profile. It would be nice to have a place to enter the pre sparge temp, so BeerSmith can calculate the temp of the water needed.
 
ihikeut said:
BeerSmith doesn't know the actual temp of the mash before sparging, so it has you add a small amount of water to adjust it to the set sparge temp. The temp of your sparge water can be change in the mash profile. It would be nice to have a place to enter the pre sparge temp, so BeerSmith can calculate the temp of the water needed.

might not be exactly what you're looking for, but the mobile app has a tool called "mash adjust".  plug in target mash temp, current mash temp, current volume, garin weight, water temp addition, and it'll tell you amount of water to add.
 
I agree with you there is a tool to figure this out, but there should be a place in the mash profile to enter the pre sparge temp. That way the water temp adjustment would be calculated in the brew steps. 
 
"Mash Adjust" is how I determined that you'd need about 220F of 1.22 gallons of water to get to 168F. 
 
Awesome.  I get it now.  I guess i'll have to download Beersmith mobile for that tool.  Thanks to everyone who replied...you were all very helpful.

Cheers.
 
Great information from Scott.

Although I fly sparge I do it in a similar 2 step manner with a mash out. Usually I simply add 1 gallon of boiling water at the end of the mash which brings it up to about 160-162F. I then let it sit and re-circulate for 10 mins before starting the sparge. In Beersmith I account for this in the mash out window (mash tab - double click mash out step) by changing the default mash out volume and mash-out temp so the water added is as close to 212 as possible - it won't let you go over 212.

I have been considering doing what Scott does and removing some of the wort and boiling it then recombining to bring up to 168F. Now I know it works I will definately try it on the next batch. I did not think to use the mash Adjust tool to calculate how much - thanks Scott!
 
On batches where my grain bill is large and strike water volumes are large resulting in something like this: 

Batch Sparge with two steps (Drain mash tun, 3.61 gallons) of 168F water.

I'll vorlauf and drain the mash tun of the proper amount of wort that I need, so that I can bring that up to boiling temperature of 212F and then add it back in and stir well, so that my mash will settle at 168F.  I'll let it sit at 168F, with the lid closed on my mash tun for 15 minutes, then vorlauf and slowly drain the mash tun.  Then I'll add my 3.61 gallons at the proper temperature (usually about 175Fish) to get me back to 168F on my second batch sparge.

One thing I've learned is that without the mass of the hot water in your mash tun (which is right after you drain it!), your grains start to lose temperature really fast, as compared to when they have that large mass of water with them.  After draining my mash tun, my grain bed, which is no longer mixed in with all that first runnings wort, will usually drop to about 160F to 164F range really fast!    If I add my batch sparge at the 168F temperature, I usually settle at about 165Fish, which to me is just a tad low, so I'll aim a tad higher (the 175ish F temperature above) to compensate.

I try really hard to get my mash out to 168F on the nose!  The hotter the mash temperature is, the lower the viscosity of the wort and the easier it will be to rinse the sugars out of the grain.  Every time that I've been lazy and decided to go with the low 160'sF mash out temperature, my efficiency has suffered, and I miss my OG on the low side.  I only worry about too hot of a mash out when I get above 170F.  It is hits 170F, but isn't higher, I'm happy.  If it hits 168F, I'm overjoyed.
 
Just to give you guys a follow-up.....  Yesterday was brew day and I am very pleased with the outcome.  With the help of the great answers I got on this thread, I hit my gravity perfectly despite it being my first all-grain brew!  I was pretty excited to say the least.  Thanks again to all who took the time to answer my questions! 

Cheers.  :)
 
Fantastic!  I'm glad that everything went so well.  I'm sure it will be quite delicious.

I was the demonstration brewer at a booth at a Brewfest a few times, under a tent, in the middle of a park.  Our homebrew club puts up an awning and we brew a batch a day over the three days.  One is an extract brew, one is an extract with steeping grains and one is all grain.  My system is very portable, so I try to volunteer to brew the all grain batch. I hit my OG dead on the first year, so I know how you felt hitting your OG.  It's always a great feeling, when everything comes together.  I made an English ESB that first year.  Despite brewing in a park in 90F weather, that beer ended up getting a blue ribbon two months later at a competition.  I was really pleased with it.

I missed my OG low the last time just a little bit.  Brewmex41 here helped me last year.  We forgot the drill to run the barley crusher, so he hand cranked all the grains.  He was a beast on that hand crank!  Ohhh, to be young again!!  We brewed the Collaboration Porter that was designed here on BeerSmith Forums with about a dozen of us in the Recipe threads.  It turned out very tasty.  That keg is just about dead.  I'll be sad to see it kicked.
 
Didn't realize I'd been sparging wrong. Like Firkin, I assumed you lautered out the strike water before adding the first batch sparge. Brewed yesterday -- the right way -- and what a difference it made!

Thanks Scott Ickes -- once again -- for pointing in the right direction. Write a book. I'll buy it.

On a related note, I'd love to read descriptions / how-tos for basic mash styles listed in BeerSmith. I find even the names confusing. Why, for instance, is it called "Single infusion" when the brew steps call for putting water in the MLT three times?
 
First off, thank you very much for your kind words!  That means a lot to me.

I don't have the time to write a book and besides, everything I know has mostly come from books.  I write technical reports as part of my regular job, so writing a book would feel too much like a job.  Besides, if I did write a book, I'd need an idea for a brewing book that hasn't been written yet, but that would also be useful.  I don't have that idea yet. 

I'm a very voracious reader!!  I have read most of my library of brewing books three times or more.

The reason it's called "single infusion" is because you're only infusing hot water one time to get the grain to a specific temperature that is below your mash out temperature.  You heat your water up the the single "infusion" temperature and add your grain to it and it settles at your mash in temperature. 

However, when you're making lagers and other things that require a protein rest or some other lower temperature rest, you might mash in at a much lower temperature (Between 95F and 135F) and hold it there for a period of time before adding another infusion that gets you up to your "mash" temperature.  You may even have multiple infusions along the way, slowly raising the temperature in steps.  Eventually, your last infusion, gets you to your "mash temperature" where you start to convert starches to sugars.
 
Back
Top