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trub vs. no trub

benjah

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Ive read some recent stuff online that transferring trub into your fermentation vessel is not such a bad thing. All my brewing life I've heard that trub or hop sediment will contribute to off flavors, cloudy beer, etc. What do you think? I currently use a hop spider with a  grain bag attached to filter out hop sediment, and I have a bazooka screen in my keggle.

Does anyone here pitch hops directly to boil with no filter? What about transferring trub? Do you not worry about it or do you try to filter most of it out?
 
I use pellet hops and I just toss them in the pot when it is their turn to boil. When I've completed the boil and cooled down the brew I run it thru three strainers (stacked on each other) between the boil pot and the fermenter. a regular spaghetti strainer, and then two screen strainers. The strainers stop a lot of the final sediment from getting into the fermenter. so as they clog up I hose them off, hit them with a little star san and then continue with the transfer.  This also has some advantage of letting a lot of air mix with the wort as it goes into the fermenter. Probably not the most scientific method but it works for me and my brews come out pretty clear.
 
I never worry about trub.  It doesn't contribute to off flavors, and precipitates out during fermentation.  Let 'er rip.
 
I use hop sacks in the boil so have little to no trub.  What little I have settles out during fermentation.
I buy rolls of 25yd white stockinette @ around $16 (100% pure cotton, no nylon, no rubber, etc.) and cut to lengths I need for the various hop pitches.  Lasts me a long time.
 
It's tough to say that hops contribute favorable/unfavorable flavors without testing it for yourself.

I imagine every beer is different. Varying hop levels.

Do late addition hops impart more vegetable flavors in the fermenter than ones that did a full 60 minute boil? Do certain hop varieties contribute more polyphenols with more fermenter soak-time, and does the recipe blend the flavor well? Would I even know the difference between the flavor of a hop varieties' pure acid flavor and that of its green matter?

I would say the chances are that if you're a homebrewer, then it doesn't matter because there are so many other little things wrong with your beer that it might be tough to discern any difference at all. The fact that I make a beer once in a while that rivals commercial beer may in fact just be that the flavor is hidden well by the recipe of the beer.
 
I generally just dump it all into the primary. Sometimes with really hopped up brews I'll leave some pellet sludge behind in the boil pot, but most of the time it all goes in.  I then leave the bulk of it behind when I rack into the secondary.  If I didn't use a secondary then I might do it differently, but since I don't I haven't given it that much thought.

My understanding is that it is a matter of scale. When making five gallons, some trub in the bottom isn't a big deal. When making thousands of gallons of beer that must taste exactly the same every run, then it becomes a variable to remove.

Is your beer good? If so, then I say if it ain't broke don't fix it.
 
This is anecdotal only. I'm a new all-grainer.

My most recent 5 gallon batch was hopped to the hilt. All leaf, no pellets. It all went straight into the kettle. After cooling I used a straining set up similar to Slobrew's, a colander sitting atop a steel mesh strainer. I usually cap my fermenter and let it sit overnight before aerating and pitching. This time I noticed that 4 liters of gunk had settled at the bottom despite my straining efforts. I decided to rack it off into a second bucket leaving those 4 liters behind. I topped it off with water, aerated, pitched and hoped for the best. Of course my FG might now stand for "F•••••g Gone", but it's turned out to be the clearest and cleanest tasting beer I've brewed.
 
Trub has a couple definitions. First trub is what your transfer from your boil kettle to your fermenter. Second definition is what falls off your yeast in the fermentation.

IMO the first trub is mostly bits of hops and grains. I do not think there’s enough to add any flavors good or bad. I whirlpool and transfer off with no strainer. Whatever makes it drops out in the first stage.

Second Trub is composed mainly of heavy fats, proteins and inactive yeast. I know many state they have no need for a second stage per the trub has no effect but I’m not in that boat.

The wonderful single cell animal we call yeast is not happy unless it’s in a perfect environment. Reason we go through extremes to achieve the perfect environment by making starters and such. I find no scientific papers stating spent yeast, fats, and proteins are what make yeast thrive in optimal conditions. So I’ll second stage until I have a big old tank I can pull it off of without transferring to a second stage fermentation.
 
CTJay said:
Trub has a couple definitions. First trub is what your transfer from your boil kettle to your fermenter. Second definition is what falls off your yeast in the fermentation.

IMO the first trub is mostly bits of hops and grains. I do not think there’s enough to add any flavors good or bad. I whirlpool and transfer off with no strainer. Whatever makes it drops out in the first stage.

There should be very few bits of grain.  Its the lowest contributor to kettle-trub.  If there is more than a few then there is a process problem that needs to be addressed.  further, if there is significant grain in the boil...it can contribute off-flavors DURING THE BOIL.  So, if you have visble grains floating in your boil kettle...you have a problem to fix. 

You forgot hot-break and cold-break.  Which is a substanial portion of the trub.  I agree that a little break material in the fermenter is not a real flavor concern.  However, I wouldn't recommend to anyone to just dump all their trub into the fermenter.  Your practice of whirlpooling, and then transferring mostly clear wort is sufficient. 

I agree that hop matter is still the largest contributor in all but the most subtly hopped brews.  In those cases, break material is the largest contributor. 

However, your supposition that kettle-trub does not contibute "flavors" is incorrect.  Excess vegetal matter (hop particulates), in paticular, can have a significant flavor contribution---and its not a good one.  So, a best effort should be made to limit hop material during transfer. 

That said, if you are using pellet hops there is no real way to segregate break material from the spent hops.  So, again best practice is to whirlpool and siphon clear wort only. 

The ability to discern the flavor contributions of trub material depends on the recipe.  for the more strongly flavored brews, it will be difficult or impossible for the flavors to come through.  But, is a subtle blonde of one variety or another these can quickly ruin the batch. 

CTJay said:
Second Trub is composed mainly of heavy fats, proteins and inactive yeast. I know many state they have no need for a second stage per the trub has no effect but I’m not in that boat.

You are espousing an opinion which is not based in fact.  The FACT is that in 5-10 gallon batches, there is NO flavor impact for primary durations less than 6 weeks given reasonable yeast conditions.  If you are using liquid yeast, growing a starter, using yeast nutrient, and oxygenating your wort...then there is ZERO risk of an off flavor from the by-products of fermentation. 

This has been demonstrated time and time again, by Homebrew National Champion after Champion---whose winning brews were transferred directly from the primary vessel into the serving container (mostly kegs). 

In fact there are additional risks associated with transfering to secondary, specifically: oxygenation, and infection.  Every transfer will introduce some of both.  It is absolutely unavoidable.  Anyone who says differently doesn't understand the concepts of parts-per-million, and sanitary vs. sterile. 

There are also the additional risks associated with transferring off the primary yeast cake before the fermentation is done.  A number of primary fermentation by products are produced during the vigorous phase of fermentation.  These products have various off-flavors.  However, given enough time the yeast will go back and finish the job of metabolising these by-products into other flavorless compounds.  So, of these are what contribute to the so-called "green beer" flavor.  A properly completed beer coming out of the primary after 4 weeks at an appropriate fermentation temperature will NOT have a green beer flavor. 

However, if the transfer to secondary is done prematurely (before the by-products are completely consumed), then the bulk of the yeast population is removed and therefore cannot participate in the "clean-up".  The job is left to the yeast that have remained in suspension and didn't drop out. 

So, who are these yeast?  Will they do the job?  Well, the answer is "maybe" or maybe not. 

1.  They tend to be the slower acting yeasts.
2.  There are a LOT less of them.

If you transfer to secondary with green flavors still in the beer it will take several times longer for those flavors to go away.  What takes a few days to a week in the primary vessel will take several weeks or a couple of months in secondary.  In fact the flavors may still be present when the beer is transferred to the serving vessel...and continue to diminish during the first month or two in the bottle. 

CTJay said:
The wonderful single cell animal we call yeast is not happy unless it’s in a perfect environment. Reason we go through extremes to achieve the perfect environment by making starters and such. I find no scientific papers stating spent yeast, fats, and proteins are what make yeast thrive in optimal conditions. So I’ll second stage until I have a big old tank I can pull it off of without transferring to a second stage fermentation.

I don't understand what you are trying to get at here? 

1.  The beer fermentation environment is NOT the perfect environment.  Beer would taste BAD, if it were perfect.  we try to create some initial conditions that ensure the yeast gets a healthy start...but, after that we are creating an intentionally STRESSFUL environment becuase the flavors we like are the result of that stress.  Go taste your starter---that's the perfect environment, and the flavors that result from that environment.  If you like that, then go make youself a giant stir-plate and expose your beer to O2 for the duration of fermentation. 

2.  Yeast don't need a PERFECT environment (see #1 above).  They need to be healthy to start out.  But, provided that they were...they don't just up and die after 8 days in the home fermentation environment.  In fact they won't do that after WEEKS.  Multi-time National Champion's have stated that they leave beers in the primary for as long as 6 weeks without ANY ill-effects. 

So, I don't expect to convince you to stop using a secondary.  I don't even care if you do.  But, I just don't want someone else to read this and think that its a necessary step.  If you are doing it for "beer quality", then it is nothing more than a "voodoo rain dance".

That said there ARE valid reasons to use a secondary.  I'm not saying that it is ALWAYS a bad idea.  I'm just saying that beer quality (in the case of a 5 gallon fermenter) is NOT a valid reason. 

My philosophy for managing trub has always been to Minimize the amount of trub transferred from one stage to the next.  You don't need to go crazy about it, and use a 5 micron filter between each stage.  But, use a whirlpool out of the kettle, and waste a little beer when you transfer so that you don't suck much trub out of the primary (or secondary, if you still insist).  The less you transfer from one stage to the next, the less of a chance that you will experience an off-flavor.  But, a teaspoon of hop material, or yeast cells between stages is NOT going to kill your beer. 
 
Interesting. So the settled yeast cake that contact very little beer do most of the cleanup?

Also one of my best beers of the year had grains in the kettle when I skipped the vorlauf step.


There was a recent exbeeriment that involved a tasting panel recognizing which beer was left on the trub.
http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/
 
All leaf, no pellets.

That's why. I don't use whole hops often, but when I do I bag them or find some other way to keep them out of the primary.

Go taste your starter---that's the perfect environment, and the flavors that result from that environment.

Raw bread dough is yeast in a perfect environment.
 
I think I'm going to stop worrying about trub for a couple of batches.
 
After watching the link posted by grathan, I think I will also go a few batches not worrying about trub. I have become very anal about keeping break and trub out of my fermented because I never rack to secondary. Now I wonder if it is worth it. And to think the one that sat on the trub was even clearer! I never would have guessed it.
 
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