CTJay said:
Trub has a couple definitions. First trub is what your transfer from your boil kettle to your fermenter. Second definition is what falls off your yeast in the fermentation.
IMO the first trub is mostly bits of hops and grains. I do not think there’s enough to add any flavors good or bad. I whirlpool and transfer off with no strainer. Whatever makes it drops out in the first stage.
There should be very few bits of grain. Its the lowest contributor to kettle-trub. If there is more than a few then there is a process problem that needs to be addressed. further, if there is significant grain in the boil...it can contribute off-flavors DURING THE BOIL. So, if you have visble grains floating in your boil kettle...you have a problem to fix.
You forgot hot-break and cold-break. Which is a substanial portion of the trub. I agree that a little break material in the fermenter is not a real flavor concern. However, I wouldn't recommend to anyone to just dump all their trub into the fermenter. Your practice of whirlpooling, and then transferring mostly clear wort is sufficient.
I agree that hop matter is still the largest contributor in all but the most subtly hopped brews. In those cases, break material is the largest contributor.
However, your supposition that kettle-trub does not contibute "flavors" is incorrect. Excess vegetal matter (hop particulates), in paticular, can have a significant flavor contribution---and its not a good one. So, a best effort should be made to limit hop material during transfer.
That said, if you are using pellet hops there is no real way to segregate break material from the spent hops. So, again best practice is to whirlpool and siphon clear wort only.
The ability to discern the flavor contributions of trub material depends on the recipe. for the more strongly flavored brews, it will be difficult or impossible for the flavors to come through. But, is a subtle blonde of one variety or another these can quickly ruin the batch.
CTJay said:
Second Trub is composed mainly of heavy fats, proteins and inactive yeast. I know many state they have no need for a second stage per the trub has no effect but I’m not in that boat.
You are espousing an opinion which is not based in fact. The FACT is that in 5-10 gallon batches, there is NO flavor impact for primary durations less than 6 weeks given reasonable yeast conditions. If you are using liquid yeast, growing a starter, using yeast nutrient, and oxygenating your wort...then there is ZERO risk of an off flavor from the by-products of fermentation.
This has been demonstrated time and time again, by Homebrew National Champion after Champion---whose winning brews were transferred directly from the primary vessel into the serving container (mostly kegs).
In fact there are additional risks associated with transfering to secondary, specifically: oxygenation, and infection. Every transfer will introduce some of both. It is absolutely unavoidable. Anyone who says differently doesn't understand the concepts of parts-per-million, and sanitary vs. sterile.
There are also the additional risks associated with transferring off the primary yeast cake before the fermentation is done. A number of primary fermentation by products are produced during the vigorous phase of fermentation. These products have various off-flavors. However, given enough time the yeast will go back and finish the job of metabolising these by-products into other flavorless compounds. So, of these are what contribute to the so-called "green beer" flavor. A properly completed beer coming out of the primary after 4 weeks at an appropriate fermentation temperature will NOT have a green beer flavor.
However, if the transfer to secondary is done prematurely (before the by-products are completely consumed), then the bulk of the yeast population is removed and therefore cannot participate in the "clean-up". The job is left to the yeast that have remained in suspension and didn't drop out.
So, who are these yeast? Will they do the job? Well, the answer is "maybe" or maybe not.
1. They tend to be the slower acting yeasts.
2. There are a LOT less of them.
If you transfer to secondary with green flavors still in the beer it will take several times longer for those flavors to go away. What takes a few days to a week in the primary vessel will take several weeks or a couple of months in secondary. In fact the flavors may still be present when the beer is transferred to the serving vessel...and continue to diminish during the first month or two in the bottle.
CTJay said:
The wonderful single cell animal we call yeast is not happy unless it’s in a perfect environment. Reason we go through extremes to achieve the perfect environment by making starters and such. I find no scientific papers stating spent yeast, fats, and proteins are what make yeast thrive in optimal conditions. So I’ll second stage until I have a big old tank I can pull it off of without transferring to a second stage fermentation.
I don't understand what you are trying to get at here?
1. The beer fermentation environment is NOT the perfect environment. Beer would taste BAD, if it were perfect. we try to create some initial conditions that ensure the yeast gets a healthy start...but, after that we are creating an intentionally STRESSFUL environment becuase the flavors we like are the result of that stress. Go taste your starter---that's the perfect environment, and the flavors that result from that environment. If you like that, then go make youself a giant stir-plate and expose your beer to O2 for the duration of fermentation.
2. Yeast don't need a PERFECT environment (see #1 above). They need to be healthy to start out. But, provided that they were...they don't just up and die after 8 days in the home fermentation environment. In fact they won't do that after WEEKS. Multi-time National Champion's have stated that they leave beers in the primary for as long as 6 weeks without ANY ill-effects.
So, I don't expect to convince you to stop using a secondary. I don't even care if you do. But, I just don't want someone else to read this and think that its a necessary step. If you are doing it for "beer quality", then it is nothing more than a "voodoo rain dance".
That said there ARE valid reasons to use a secondary. I'm not saying that it is ALWAYS a bad idea. I'm just saying that beer quality (in the case of a 5 gallon fermenter) is NOT a valid reason.
My philosophy for managing trub has always been to Minimize the amount of trub transferred from one stage to the next. You don't need to go crazy about it, and use a 5 micron filter between each stage. But, use a whirlpool out of the kettle, and waste a little beer when you transfer so that you don't suck much trub out of the primary (or secondary, if you still insist). The less you transfer from one stage to the next, the less of a chance that you will experience an off-flavor. But, a teaspoon of hop material, or yeast cells between stages is NOT going to kill your beer.