Author Topic: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators  (Read 22873 times)

Offline panozs

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Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« on: January 13, 2017, 01:49:57 AM »
The Grainfather profile provided in Beersmith doesn't give the same amount of water volumes as the GF online calculators.

I was wondering what are the exact and accurate adjustments and settings that need to be done in Beersmith equipment profile in order to calculate correctly, not only sparge and mash water volumes, but also the rest of the values.

Could you please provide me with a more accurate list of values I must input in Beersmith?

I have already contacted Grainfather support and the response I got was that I may need to contact Beersmith also to understand how to do this. As this is not their program they are not familiar with the parameters involved...
I'll have another beer now...

KellerBrauer

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2017, 05:50:36 AM »
Greetings panics - I'm not familiar with Grainfather equipment.  However, I can tell you that the parameters established in BeerSmith are "ballpark" parameters that are intended to be adjusted by the user to fit your particular needs.

So, my question to you is: have you used this equipment to brew? If so, exactly what area(s) of your process were off? With that information, one of the other brewers can most certainly assist in making the necessary adjustments.

It took me many brews to finally get my equipment profile dialed in.

Hope this helps!

Offline panozs

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2017, 07:02:14 AM »
I am not familiar with the grainfather equipment either. This question came up after I was fooling around with beersmith and the grainfather equipment profile.

The diy BIAB equipment I am using, is dialed in Beersmith by me and tweaked and adjusted during my first brewing attempts and is now accurate and I am happy with the profile I use. This is something someone would expect for a diy equipment profile.

I don't think though that this should be the case with a profile that uses the commercial name of an equipment like Beersmith or Blichmann etc. If the idea behind preconfigured profiles was to provide a "ballpark" figure I don't really see why there must be so many of them.

So my main question is what has to be adjusted to it, in order to keep comparative with the GF calculators. I suppose that if something so obvious and important needs to be adjusted other values may need tweaking as well.
 
I'll have another beer now...

Offline Oginme

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2017, 09:20:58 AM »
Disclaimer:  I do not own a grainfather, but think my response may help.

While the equipment may be standardized, the other process inputs (grain, water) are not.  Water should be pretty straight forward, but when it comes to the grain things become non-standard.

The grain you use, the crush of it, the care of mashing in, grain removal and wort drainage are all variables to the machine.  These things have an impact on the amount of water which is retained in the spent grains and the effectiveness of removing the starches which are then converted to sugars.  No simple calculator can account for these changes and, therefore, some personalization of profiles needs to be done in most cases to make the profile match your particular brewing method and materials. 

Add to that, some people may leave behind more wort than others when they fill their fermentor.  For example, I plan on 11 liter batches and transfer 10 liters to my carboy.  Others may transfer the full amount of 11 liters (leading to the same water usage) or may make and transfer only 10 liters (leading to a different water demand, extraction efficiency, etc.)

Personally, I would not try to make the profile match the Grainfather calculator, but using the information from the calculator make a recipe and then use the actual information to adjust the BeerSmith profile to match my results.
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Offline bougie1st

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2017, 05:20:19 PM »
I do own a grainfather, and I think Oginme's response is perfect.

Oginme and Brewfun have had to deal with a heap of my questions. In reality, I think that what I was trying to do was force BS2 to fit the standard GF calculations, rather than tailoring it to my machine.  Boil-off changes with altitude, absolute temperature, humidity, etc. You'll even see on the GF website there are different calculations for the voltage of the machine you have - that is even though everything else about the equipment is the same (eg geometry, surface area), and boiling point doesn't change (at your standard location/altitude).

If you want a profile that will make it work, I have uploaded them here (my machine is in Australia, running of a 240v system). http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,15224.0.html  Reply #6 is the one I am talking about.  You need to change the absorption in Options, and the water grain ratio in each mash profile you are using.

Despite being able to force BS2 calculate the mash and sparge volumes, other variances in your own system (due to location, etc as mentioned above) will influence the variables from then on.  Noting and recording this, I have moved away from these standard calculations and am dialling my own system to reflect what I see. 

It's like driving a car from point A to B.  While the car might be the same each day, other factors that are out of your control will influence the time it takes.  Other cars, holiday traffic, rain, car accidents will change things slightly.  Although google maps says it takes 20 mins, one day it might be 18, another 25, another 23, another 15, who knows?  And each trip will affect the fuel you consume, even though the route and distance may be the same.  But if you know your own conditions and timing, you'll know that you need to leave 40 mins (say) before work (I can't stand being late - "early is on time, on time is late and late is unacceptable") and have x litres of fuel in the car.  Same thing here.  Start with the ballpark figures and fine tune to your own system to account for variability in manufacturing of the GF, element, chiller, amount of hops (and absorption), grain absorption, power supply, altitude, etc, etc.

There are lots of people happy with the GF calcs and values - that is fine.  The files I've linked will get you there. But unless you are very lucky, you will never entirely match BS2 (also, it uses different equations and assumptions).  You'll have to make a compromise somewhere

Offline panozs

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 03:54:26 AM »
Thanks guys. Probably that's the way to go with these calculations. I'll try and try them when I'll be able to lay hands on a GF for some testing.

I'll have another beer now...

Offline kevino

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2017, 04:07:45 PM »
Hi Panozs,

I found the below to work out almost perfectly for me everytime. Apart from above 7.5kg of grain, where Grainfathers online mash/sparge water calc seems to go wrong, as the mash water drops with more grain, which seems incorrect to me, so must be a stuff up from them Im thinking.

Setup up 3 things and the calcs should work out....
First - Setup two equipment profiles. One for 60min, and one for 90min, see attached picture called (profiles) for details on each. Use 60min profile for 60min, and 90 for 90min.

The two more important things to do...
1. go into advanced option (see attached pic called GrainAbsorption for details) and change the grain absorption from 0.96 to 0.77
2. then create a mash profile to however you want to mash, but make the mash step with a water/grain ratio of 2.72 l/kg

This seams to work out almost perfectly for me...hope it works for you too....tweak boil off as you see fit. BH efficency seems to go up a few points with lighter beers (lagers). This should all be a good place to start anyways....Happy Brewing.

Note: - Have since removed lautertun losses from the displayed profile, down to 0.00 and added 3.41L to Mash tun addition in my equipment profile, and ticked "Adjust mash vol for losses". Also set my boil off to 3L  which is now mush closer for me. - Hope this helps someone.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 10:36:44 PM by kevino »
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Offline MGBBob80

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2017, 09:45:29 PM »
Hi Kevino,

Just received my Grainfather and getting ready for first brew later this week.  I'm going to do a very simple 6 gallon batch with a 10.75 lb grain bill for my first brew.  I updated the Beersmith profiles as you discussed above and am getting some interesting results. 

The GF calculations say that I should mash with 4.56 gallons water (17.26L) and sparge with 3.92 gallons (14.84l).  That's a total of 8.48 gallons (32.1l) which sounds about right.  Beersmith calculates that I should mash with 3.87 gallons (14.65l) and sparge with 4.56 gallons (17.26l).  That's a total of 8.43 gallons (31.91l), which also sounds about right. 

All in all, the total volume of water used is very close regardless of the method used to caluclate, but the amounts of water added during the mash and sparge are different.  Based on my current ability to heat sparge water (I have a 5-gallon pot), I'm liking the GF calculations a little better.  Wondering if you've seen this, or if it even matters.

All the best,
Bob 

Cheers, Bob

Offline kevino

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2017, 10:29:36 PM »
Hi MGBBob80,

Yes, I had big troubles initially trying to work it all out, but the most important thing was the grain absorbtion and my two main equipment profiles (60 & 90min) ones as mentioned above, set up exactly the same as these, and creating your own mash profile correctly. I found if I created a basic mash profile to start with, where water / grain ratio was 2.719 l/kg, Step time was 60min, and just set the temp you want, then add the mash out step at 75c for 10min (change nothing else), save that, and use that mash profile under mash tab in your recipe, then your gettin pretty damn close to the online grainfather calculator...until you go over 7.5kg, as I have mentioned above (I believe this is grainfather site calc misscalculation).
I plugged in your calcs using 4.88kg of grain (23ltr / 6 gallon batch), and the mash profile I mention, 60min boil, and its calcs out of 16.67L Mash water, and 15.26L of sparge (using 220v machine), if I go online and use grainfathers website calcs, they show 16.68L mash, and 15.23 L sparge....pretty bloody close. If your using a 110v machine, then take a litre off the sparge water.
Try it and let me know. You can email me if you wish too, and we can work it out.

Cheers / Kev.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 10:32:10 PM by kevino »
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Offline MGBBob80

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2017, 10:13:20 AM »
Kevino,

PM sent.

Bob
Cheers, Bob

Offline butisitart

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2017, 04:25:24 PM »
after 95 batches on gf, at some point (i think about batch 60), that if i follow the gf site calculation on how much mash water to put for weight of grain, then that's about as good as it gets for mash consistency.
for sparge, i use the gf site as a guide, but get the water to around 29 or 29.5L. (just below max if you're on gals).
then i just boil back to a fermenter plus 1L (about 1.5 pints), so 24L.
that can be a 2 hour boil, but who cares??  the finished product goes up another level.

Offline MartinFa

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2017, 12:36:09 PM »
Hi kevino,

Also looking to get a fix on differences between BS2 and Grainfather settings. Many thanks for your inputs

I've noticed what might be a discrepancy in your setups based upon GF recommendations for mash water vol (i.e. = (Grain weight Kg x 2.7 L/Kg) + 3.5L).

Setup up 3 things and the calcs should work out....
First - Setup two equipment profiles. One for 60min, and one for 90min, see attached picture called (profiles) for details on each. Use 60min profile for 60min, and 90 for 90min.

Yep, so far, so good, but my understanding - based on the tooltip when your mouse hovers over the field - is that the BS2 setting "Mash Tun Addition" is where you'd add the 3.5L of mash water (aka Deadspace) below the bottom mash screen. This is the "+ 3.5L" from the GF mash vol calculation. It looks as though you've added that 3.5L into your equipment profiles as  "Lauter Tun Losses", which is actually lost from the process. Though I see you've then added back the 3.5L as "Top Up Water For Kettle". This might have an effect on the brew efficiency, though - TBH - I'm not sure! I guess if your values work for you then all is good.

The two more important things to do...
1. go into advanced option (see attached pic called GrainAbsorption for details) and change the grain absorption from 0.96 to 0.77

This brings the grain absorption figure (in the unusual (for me) fl oz/oz units) close to GFs recommended 0.8L/Kg. However, a number of references I've found suggest 1L/Kg to be more realistic. This is equivalent to 0.958 fl oz/oz. Or pretty much what was originally set in in BS2.

I guess the effective absorption will reduce the longer you're prepared to allow wort to drain from the grain.

I must admit, I've never really got around to being methodical enough to measure these things, and I've not had the GF long enough to fine tune the details yet.

Offline kevino

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2017, 05:46:45 PM »
Hi kevino,

Also looking to get a fix on differences between BS2 and Grainfather settings. Many thanks for your inputs

I've noticed what might be a discrepancy in your setups based upon GF recommendations for mash water vol (i.e. = (Grain weight Kg x 2.7 L/Kg) + 3.5L).

Setup up 3 things and the calcs should work out....
First - Setup two equipment profiles. One for 60min, and one for 90min, see attached picture called (profiles) for details on each. Use 60min profile for 60min, and 90 for 90min.

Yep, so far, so good, but my understanding - based on the tooltip when your mouse hovers over the field - is that the BS2 setting "Mash Tun Addition" is where you'd add the 3.5L of mash water (aka Deadspace) below the bottom mash screen. This is the "+ 3.5L" from the GF mash vol calculation. It looks as though you've added that 3.5L into your equipment profiles as  "Lauter Tun Losses", which is actually lost from the process. Though I see you've then added back the 3.5L as "Top Up Water For Kettle". This might have an effect on the brew efficiency, though - TBH - I'm not sure! I guess if your values work for you then all is good.

It does work for me. - I found adding it in the Mash Tun Addition area took away from the sparge water volume, which didn't calc out. For instance (using GF calcs online) 5 kg malt, with boil time of 90min (220v), should be mash 17litres, Sparge 16.50 Litres. Using the Mush tun addition as you say (and using my profile), calcs out at 17L mash, 13.10L sparge.
But when I use the Tun Deadspace instead as I have, and zero out Mush Tun Addition, then it calcs out at 17L Mash, 16.52L sparge, which seems to be correct according to GF calcs.


The two more important things to do...
1. go into advanced option (see attached pic called GrainAbsorption for details) and change the grain absorption from 0.96 to 0.77

This brings the grain absorption figure (in the unusual (for me) fl oz/oz units) close to GFs recommended 0.8L/Kg. However, a number of references I've found suggest 1L/Kg to be more realistic. This is equivalent to 0.958 fl oz/oz. Or pretty much what was originally set in in BS2.
I guess the effective absorption will reduce the longer you're prepared to allow wort to drain from the grain.
I must admit, I've never really got around to being methodical enough to measure these things, and I've not had the GF long enough to fine tune the details yet.
I use 0.77 fl oz/oz as this works out correctly again for the mash water volume. I have yet to have a real in depth look into this also, but it's working for me in the interim. All the final volumes seem to be spot on, so will work for now, until I tweak more later. This is a good starting point for most with a Grainfather though I feel, then you can tweak until it suites you and your results.
Yep, so far, so good, but my understanding - based on the tooltip when your mouse hovers over the field - is that the BS2 setting "Mash Tun Addition" is where you'd add the 3.5L of mash water (aka Deadspace) below the bottom mash screen. This is the "+ 3.5L" from the GF mash vol calculation. It looks as though you've added that 3.5L into your equipment profiles as  "Lauter Tun Losses", which is actually lost from the process. Though I see you've then added back the 3.5L as "Top Up Water For Kettle". This might have an effect on the brew efficiency, though - TBH - I'm not sure! I guess if your values work for you then all is good.

It does work for me. - I found adding it in the Mash Tun Addition area took away from the sparge water volume, which didn't calc out. For instance (using GF calcs online) 5 kg malt, with boil time of 90min (220v), should be mash 17litres, Sparge 16.50 Litres. Using the Mush tun addition as you say (and using my profile), calcs out at 17L mash, 13.10L sparge.
But when I use the Tun Deadspace instead as I have, and zero out Mush Tun Addition, then it calcs out at 17L Mash, 16.52L sparge, which seems to be correct according to GF calcs.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 05:49:18 PM by kevino »
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Offline dariva

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2018, 12:21:34 PM »
Hi Panozs,

I found the below to work out almost perfectly for me everytime. Apart from above 7.5kg of grain, where Grainfathers online mash/sparge water calc seems to go wrong, as the mash water drops with more grain, which seems incorrect to me, so must be a stuff up from them Im thinking.

Setup up 3 things and the calcs should work out....
First - Setup two equipment profiles. One for 60min, and one for 90min, see attached picture called (profiles) for details on each. Use 60min profile for 60min, and 90 for 90min.

The two more important things to do...
1. go into advanced option (see attached pic called GrainAbsorption for details) and change the grain absorption from 0.96 to 0.77
2. then create a mash profile to however you want to mash, but make the mash step with a water/grain ratio of 2.72 l/kg

This seams to work out almost perfectly for me...hope it works for you too....tweak boil off as you see fit. BH efficency seems to go up a few points with lighter beers (lagers). This should all be a good place to start anyways....Happy Brewing.

Hello Kevino and all, I did this config and it seems to work fine. I just have an issue here:

I have a grainfather 110v and I start matching the OG and FG after I start using the GF calculators and take 1l out of the sparge water. I am trying to config that in the beer smith, but I couldn?t find what to change in order to achieve the right volume of sparge water. In fact, in my GF profile the sparge water has been 1 liter more than the GF calculator and what I need is to get 1 liter less.

Thank you in advance.
drv

Offline dariva

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Re: Grainfather Equipment Profile different from GF calculators
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 12:56:08 PM »
I close/open the beer smith and it?s working fine now. According to the Kevino?s post. But I still want to change some configuration in order to reduce the sparge water in 1 liter.

 

modification