Author Topic: Whirlpool time - equip profile versus recipe input  (Read 6457 times)

Offline Owlbat

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Whirlpool time - equip profile versus recipe input
« on: March 24, 2017, 10:00:54 AM »
I'm working on scaling my homebrew recipes up for use very soon on a 5bbl commercial system.  I have researched and read the many things around steep/whirlpool utilization, and the changes to Beersmith the last few years to help calculate this.

My question is:  When setting up my equipment profile for the 5bbl, I have filled in 30 minutes under "Whirlpool/Steep Hop Utilization" (my best guess as to average whirlpool/knockout through HX time) and I have checked "Estimate Boil Hop Util in Whirlpool".  Which is great - I do believe in some return from under-utilized boil hops when subject to a long whirlpool above iso temps (although somewhat diminished the longer it was in the boil, and any drop in temp) and I do believe in IBU contribution from flameout additions when subject to a long, hot whirlpool (although not as effective as the boil).  I don't really want to delve into the merits and intricacy of the formulas used in the program to calculate all this, but rather I am trying to figure out which part of the software is affecting the numbers:  The default whirlpool time set in the equipment profile; or the whirlpool time set in the individual recipe; or maybe, as it seems, both are working together?

eg. 60 minute boil addition.  5 minute boil addition.  And flameout steep/whirlpool addition, set in the recipe for 10 minutes.

If I understand correctly: The software will calculate traditional boil contributions of the 60 and 5 minute additions, and in addition, calculate any (diminished but apparent) utilization of those additions in the whirlpool.  Awesome.

Perhaps this particular beer is a light flavored but hoppy beer,  and I don't want an extended whirlpool time, which is why I set my recipe whirlpool to 10 minutes.  But my equip profile is set to 30 minutes until knockout.  Which length of time entry is the software drawing from?  It seems to me that it is using both: it's assuming I turn off my flame, wait 20 minutes, then add my whirlpool hops for 10 minutes, with a total of 30 minutes (as per the equipment profile).  In reality I'll always add my whirlpool hops straight away at flameout.

Do I have to manually change my equip profile each time I brew a different style that may have differinbg whirlpool times, so as to ensure that whirlpool additions always begin at flameout, and are only in for as long as I specify in my recipe, not my equip profile?

Hopefully I didn't repeat myself too much.  And I did read many articles and posts on similar matters, but none quite answered my question.  Looking forward to suggestions, particularly the software designers thoughts.

Cheers

Offline brewfun

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Re: Whirlpool time - equip profile versus recipe input
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2017, 10:27:31 AM »
The equipment profile WP time is the carryover of Kettle to WP. It assumes that all kettle additions are carried over to the WP and stays above 85C, which is the case in most small commercial systems. In each recipe, you would just adjust the equipment profile time to reflect the actual WP time above 85C.

When you add a specific WP hop, the time you assign to that hop is what creates the IBU number and again, assumes it's above 85C.





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Offline Owlbat

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Re: Whirlpool time - equip profile versus recipe input
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2017, 10:33:49 AM »
OK, so assuming you understand what I'm trying to do (basically, ignore the 'default' whirlpool times entered into the equipment profile, and instead use custom whirlpool times for each different beer recipe)... then how about entering 'zero' in the equipment profile, and only enter whirlpool times in the recipe itself for those hop additions?

Just trying that, it seemed to work.  Will the software still assume that my recipe-entered whirlpool additions are also above 85C the whole time?

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Offline Oginme

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Re: Whirlpool time - equip profile versus recipe input
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2017, 11:30:41 AM »
The whirlpool time in your equipment profile determines the amount of time the wort stays above 85C and should be based upon your typical brewing practice.  You can shorten or lengthen your actual whirlpool time within the recipe and Beersmith will assume based upon this time that the whirlpool will be either cut short at the time specified in the equipment profile or is extended beyond even though the whirlpool time is above what is set in the equipment profile and will calculate the IBU contribution as if the wort is still above 85C.

What this setting in the equipment profile really affects is the carry over utilization, as Brewfun has indicated.

Yes, you can set the time to 85C to zero in your equipment profile and it will not affect the utilization of your whirlpool hops.  It will affect any additional utilization you get from boil additions.
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Offline Owlbat

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Re: Whirlpool time - equip profile versus recipe input
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2017, 12:15:11 PM »
Thanks for helping me get my head around this - useful explanations, and I think I get it now.  But maybe I need more coffee, so just to be sure....  (you were very clear, so I'm sorry, this is my last round I promise)...

Whirlpool hop additions set from the recipe will only have IBU utilization for as long as their corresponding whirlpool time in the recipe (regardless of equip profile default).

If equip profile says 60 min whirl, and my recipe says 30 min whirlpool, there will indeed actually be a 60 min whirlpool/rest (assumed above 85C if checked) but the program will assume I didn't add my my whirlpool hops at flameout, but rather not until half way through the 60 min whirlpool (after 30 min).

Boil additions will have their IBU calculated based on boil time AND total whirlpool/rest time as set from the equip profile default.  ie. a 2 hour hot wort residency in the kettle (60 min boil, 60 min total whirlpool rest) will result in any eg. 60 minute boil hops, being utilized for 2 hours total.  Whirlpool hops set from recipe for 30 minutes, will actually be added at 90 minutes total residency of wort in kettle (30 minutes post flameout).

Probably repeating myself here - sorry.  It seems my own conclusion is:  Ensure recipe whirlpool and Equip profile whirlpool are set to the same lenth each time.  Just looking for validation or correction of my understanding.

Thanks!!


« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 12:16:58 PM by Owlbat »

Offline Owlbat

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Re: utilization scale up 5bbl
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2017, 12:23:27 PM »
Also, as an aside, how does 125% hop utilization sound as a starting point for scaling up recipes from 5 gallons to 5bbl?  I understand I will largely have to wait an see what happens in practice, and adjust accordingly... but I need to be in the ballpark for those first batches (can't afford not to be) and also right now it's useful for more accurate costing of the recipes at the 5bbl scale (the cost difference on hops can be significant).

Offline brewfun

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Re: Whirlpool time - equip profile versus recipe input
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2017, 09:19:53 PM »
Whirlpool hop additions set from the recipe will only have IBU utilization for as long as their corresponding whirlpool time in the recipe (regardless of equip profile default).

Yes.

Quote
If equip profile says 60 min whirl, and my recipe says 30 min whirlpool, there will indeed actually be a 60 min whirlpool/rest (assumed above 85C if checked) but the program will assume I didn't add my my whirlpool hops at flameout, but rather not until half way through the 60 min whirlpool (after 30 min).

Nope. BeerSmith sees all the WP additions as being added at the beginning of the process. This will also be how you see the WP additions in the recipe directions. However, the utilization will reflect the time you specify for them.

Quote
Boil additions will have their IBU calculated based on boil time AND total whirlpool/rest time as set from the equip profile default.  ie. a 2 hour hot wort residency in the kettle (60 min boil, 60 min total whirlpool rest) will result in any eg. 60 minute boil hops, being utilized for 2 hours total.  Whirlpool hops set from recipe for 30 minutes, will actually be added at 90 minutes total residency of wort in kettle (30 minutes post flameout).

OK, a bit of a reality check seems to be in order. Utilization happens pretty quickly. By 30 or 40 minutes, you're pretty much there. By 90 minutes, you're typically destroying as many isomers as you're creating, so you don't get much more. What a WP addition calculation does is tell you when you want to add your flavor and aroma additions so that the bitterness stays where you want it. This is most important when you want something less than 50 IBU. Above that threshold and it quickly looses any relevance to bitterness perception.

Some new WP research has been published, plus I think there is an article on WP utilization coming in Zymurgy, soon. Whirlpool isomerization is more than half complete in 10 minutes (5% util) and seems to top out at 8%.

Also, as an aside, how does 125% hop utilization sound....

I think the additional utilization is moot when you have the carryover calculation working for you. The additional utilization mattered when it handled the WP and stand time. In that case, I never had a situation where more than 110% was needed.
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